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    Pushing the limits-part two

    For some reason I can't get back into the pushing the limits thread, even on SWMBOs ipad. Can't get back into any thread with more than a few hundred replies for that matter. Didn't have any problems before the new style forum came along.

    Either I give up or I start again with part two.

    Continuing with the cooling system plumbing, I managed to pick up the MK1 RH water transfer housing I needed from Stoneleigh. This was drilled and tapped for the 3/4 BSP brass fitting, and both housings have now been bolted to the heads.
    P1000837 (600 x 450).jpg
    I have quite a few spare fuel injectors, old Range Rover/ Rover SD1 Bosch items. What I need are a matched set, and the flow rates tend to get a bit random with age, so I have made up a test rig which consists of a pump and filter and a set of injectors on an old fuel rail.
    These injectors run on 3V not 12V and normally are run through a resistor pack. For the test rig I simply wired two sets of 4 in series so I could do without the resistor. Eight 100ml measuring cylinders bought off ebay are used for the measuring. The injectors are often gummed up with dried out petrol and require a bit of rapid cycling to free them off. This is simply done by brushing the feed wire on the battery terminal which makes the injectors chatter open and shut.
    P1000830 (600 x 450).jpg
    This was a job that needed to be done outside as I didn't fancy vast amounts of petrol vapour and sparks indoors! To begin with there was about a 10% discrepancy between the greatest and poorest flowing injectors, but a bit of swapping about with other injectors got the difference down to 3%. Since the ports don't all flow identically I shall arrange the best flowing injectors in the best flowing ports like I did on the last engine.
    There was a delay of a week or so in car work in the middle of February as Judith and I had a weeks holiday in Tenerife trying out the new tandem paraglider I finally took delivery of a few days before we left. The pictures below shows Judiths feet over the town of Adeje, followed by the landing objective of each flight...... The Bar on the beach! The boardwalk to the top left of the bar is where lots of people stand to watch the paragliders land, not realising they are standing on the runway and we are doing about 15mph about 3 feet off the floor at this point!
    P1000811 (600 x 450).jpg
    P1000806 (600 x 450).jpg
    Unfortunately I have had to return to a much colder England. Enthusiasm for getting out in the workshop in these temperatures is somewhat lacking, but I have got round to making up a new set of inlet trumpets. These are Rover items but I have slightly increased the flare in the end by dropping a very large and heavy tractor front loader tine into the end of them a few times. These were then shortened by 2 inches. At the moment I have the overall length of the inlet tract set at about half an inch longer than on the 246bhp engine. I will see how the torque figures compare as I can always shorten them if they don't give better mid range torque.
    P1000833 (600 x 450).jpg
    Neil
    TV8, efi, fast road cams and home built manifolds. 246bhp 220lbft torque

    #2
    All looking good Neil, Im connecting the rear of my heads with 3/4 BSP fittings, but using hose tails into the transfer housings.
    The aerial shots are great, but Ive never fancied using my backside as undercarriage, Ive flown sailplanes (gliders) from Aboyne for years and much prefer wheels on tarmac to land on.

    Comment


      #3
      I still can't get on the pushing the limits thread since the new forum started. I have found I can view it if I am not logged in, but it disappears as soon as I log in, as do all the other long threads.
      Hence I am continuing here.
      A great deal of cold weather induced lethargy has slowed progress somewhat, and SWMBO has had surgery a month ago that has left here stuck in the house as she can't drive. She gets somewhat peed off if I spend all day working then disappear into the garage at night!
      I have however finished and installed the inlet manifold, injectors and fuel rails, just waiting for some proper fuel injection hose to be delivered to finish the plumbing as the local motor parts place no longer stock it.
      P1000857 (600 x 450).jpg
      Decided I couldn't be bothered with polishing the alloy manifold under the rough cast plenum so ended up giving it a few coats of silver smoothrite.
      The Rover plenum standard butterfly is reckoned to be good to 250bhp, I decided to thin the throttle spindle a few mm just to give it a little help. When I have the engine up and running I will be able to tell if I am not getting 100% atmospheric pressure at max rpm by the data log from the ecu.
      P1000859 (600 x 450).jpg
      P1000862 (600 x 450).jpg
      Neil
      TV8, efi, fast road cams and home built manifolds. 246bhp 220lbft torque

      Comment


        #4
        Good article in the mag, Neil!
        Mabel is a white 1972 Mk1, TV8, ZF 4HP-22 auto,
        2016 RBRR finisher. 400 mile C2C 21/22 April 2018!

        Comment


          #5
          Great article Neil and also overcoming the even greater technical difficulty of posting on the new forum.

          Comment


            #6
            Lovely work Neil, great view down the underside of the inlet manifolds.
            Chris

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by LD334 View Post
              All looking good Neil, Im connecting the rear of my heads with 3/4 BSP fittings, but using hose tails into the transfer housings.
              Good idea using hose tails, as it means one less union to worry about. If you then linked them to a rubber or silicone T piece the next union would be onto a straight section of pipe running forward to the thermostat/water pump housing.
              Chris

              Comment


                #8
                At last something interesting to read again - keep it up Neil!
                Mike

                Comment


                  #9
                  I have now modified a spare engine adaptor plate to allow for the 10mm thick block brace between the block and the sump, basically just cut the slot 10mm wider.
                  P1000855 (600 x 450).jpgP1000852 (600 x 450).jpg

                  In addition, I have also tapped all the top bolt holes of the gearbox to adaptor plate 3/8 UNC. This enables me to use bolts straight into the threaded holes which saves several hours of swearing and frustration when it comes to bolting the engine back onto the box if the box is being left in the car, or particularly if the box is being removed with the engine being left in the car They can be reached from underneath the car with a couple of long extension bars and a universal joint, takes about 5 minutes to remove or refit the upper half dozen bolts
                  P1000853 (600 x 450).jpg
                  I have done this on every stag engine vehicle so far. The original holes are just the right size to take a 3/8 tap, though one of them is a little oversize on this plate so I might still have to resort to a nut and bolt if the thread strips as I don't have any 3/8 UNC helicoils.

                  The TR is due its last run out tonight with its old engine (Stoke Group monthly meeting). On my return it will be going into the workshop for a while. Hopefully I can remove the engine within the next week and swap those bits needed for the new engine, like water return pipe, fuel pressure regulator and distributor.
                  I also have a few other bits to do to the TR.
                  I still have one uprated front hub and stub axle to fit (did the other one last year after yet another front wheel bearing failure), swap out the too thick poly spring insulators on the rear springs as they have made the ride height a bit too high, sort out the windscreen wipers which tend to jump off the screen due to the wrong degree drive wheel being used and finally (and this will be a real PITA) sort out the demister fan which judging by the noise it made tonight has fallen off the motor shaft.
                  That lot should take a week or two, then I can get round to fitting the new engine.
                  Neil
                  Attached Files
                  Neil
                  TV8, efi, fast road cams and home built manifolds. 246bhp 220lbft torque

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hi Neil,

                    Thanks for keeping all of us educated in the mysteries of fuel injection - having read all of your forum posts I have to say that your magazine article really pulled everything you have previously done/posted together very nicely and (for thickos like me) made it all so much more easier to understand. Having just acquired a 2.5 PI estate I'm even more interested in this topic. Please tell Judith that Annie and I hope she makes a swift recovery and if you guys need a diversion we are always available to meet for a catch up and drink/meal.

                    Regards,

                    Mark
                    1972 Mk 1 - Sapphire Blue; Original TV8; HID Lamps up front;

                    Comment


                      #11
                      That adaptor plate mod is a brilliant idea - can't think of the number of times I've laid under the car or been stuck inside the bay trying to reach inaccessible nuts and bolts with badly skinned knuckles!

                      Cheers Neil!
                      Mike

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I have started pulling the TR to pieces now, and started swapping bits onto the new engine.
                        First job was the water return pipe. I decided a few modifications were required. Firstly it has never been attached to anything at the front of the engine, it simply rested on the water pump cover, so I made a little bracket so it could be bolted to the front of the plenum.
                        I decided I needed to do something different with the two little pipes from the front of the heads which act as air bleeds. Previously these had been connected with an 8mm T piece and this was connected to a convenient place the thermostat housing (from a Dolomite Sprint). Unfortunately I connected them to the wrong side of the thermostat which meant the engine struggled to reach normal temperature in cold weather, but I couldn't be bothered to do anything about it until now.
                        I cut a couple of hose tail ends off an old Rover fuel rail and welded these on opposite sides of the coolant pipe so the air bleeds could be connected directly.
                        I also decided to move the efi coolant temperature sender. This was previously tapped into the brass plug that sits on top of the Sprint thermostat housing, but I have now put this directly into the pipe as I did on my last efi Stag engine.
                        P1000867 (600 x 450).jpg
                        The coolant sensor is the little white rectangle between the extra air valve (thick black pipes attached, this increases cold engine idle speed) and the front of the plenum. The LH bleed hose is attached just behind the sensor.
                        The picture below shows the view of the back of the engine.
                        P1000873 (600 x 450).jpg
                        The thin black hose running below the centre of the plenum is the return pipe from the front of the fuel rail, this will be attached to the pressure regulator which is mounted next to the battery on the TR. The fuel from the pump will enter through the brass T just above the thick black hose which is the crankcase breather.

                        On the last engine I fed the fuel into the rear of the LH fuel rail, it then linked to the RH fuel rail at the front end, and the pressure regulator was attached to the rear of the RH fuel rail.

                        The Rover factory installation uses a looped system, presumably to prevent the 8th injector in line suffering from pressure drop when at full throttle, so I thought I had better do the same. I never flow tested the injectors on my 246bhp Stag actually on the fuel rail I am using, so I don't know if this is a real problem or not, but if I do get more power out of this engine then full throttle fuel demand will be higher.

                        When I dismantled the cam cover I cut out the old breather pipe as it is too small in diameter and inconveniently points straight at the no 7 inlet tract. Replacing it with a straight pipe means I have been able to do away with the 90 degree bend needed to use the standard breather. The previous breather installation was a cobbled together bag of spaghetti using a PCV system to stem the front cover oil leak I couldn't be bothered to fix.
                        I started out using a Stagweber system with a catch tank which was a complete waste of money as it was badly designed with inadequate pipe diameters and turned the minor oil leak into a flood. I ended up redesigning the system with bigger pipes and a one way valve to dump excess pressure when on full throttle. If I have got this engine oil tight I wont need it, if I do need it I can simply T it in anywhere along the black breather hose with an extra vacuum supply from the plenum base that currently has a blanking plug fitted.
                        Neil
                        Neil
                        TV8, efi, fast road cams and home built manifolds. 246bhp 220lbft torque

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I couldn't do a straight swap with the alternator bracket between the two engines as I have shortened the crank pulley by the best part of an inch, so I have had to knock up another mounting bracket. I have lowered the height of the alternator by about half an inch to the previous bracket as there were signs it had touched the bonnet on occasion.
                          P1000880 (600 x 450).jpg
                          I have also swapped the electric pump, this was also raised by half an inch from its previous height as the alternator belt ran too close to the bolted flange of the pump for comfort. This was a simple job of shortening the hose and winding it up on its mounting bolt.
                          I have continued to dismantle bits of the TR. I have had to remove the transmission tunnel so I could remove the heater box to find why the heater fan was making "I am dying" noises. This turned out to be very easy to fix, the problem was the casing going rusty and the fan catching on the rust! If nothing else it demonstrates I haven't been using it enough! Although it was a simple job it still consumed three evenings of work.
                          One unexpected find with the transmission cover off was a crack in the casing of the overdrive where the gearbox mount is attached.
                          P1000886 (600 x 450).jpg
                          My original intention was to leave the box in place and just swap the engine. However, now the box has to come out as well.
                          I can probably weld the crack, but it won't be as strong as the original, so I could possibly extend the bracket to pick up on the normal gearbox mount holes.
                          The other alternative is to swap the box. I have a spare manual box, fitted with a 28% overdrive. The box currently fitted to the TR could really do with the overdrive looking at, it has done about 100,000 miles since I fitted it to the TR, it was fitted to the straight six gearbox in my TR6 for a couple of years before finding itself in my TR250 with the same straight six. When I fitted the Stag engine I bought a Stag box without the overdrive, and swapped the overdrive to the Stag box.
                          The overdrive tends to slip when reversing, it has always done it, it is just that it slips a bit more easily than it used to. This overdrive unit originally came out of a Dolomite Sprint in the local scrapyard, I think I paid 30 for the complete overdrive box...... Those were the days !!!!!
                          I will have to check the number of starts on the speedo drive, I suspect I would have to change the one in the 28% overdrive, but I will also consider the effect of fitting a Stag diff as I have been given a spare one of unknown condition and the one in the TR is getting tired.
                          Neil
                          TV8, efi, fast road cams and home built manifolds. 246bhp 220lbft torque

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Suggest using the much later 27% overdrive unit type.
                            There is more than anecdotal evidence to suggest the coarse teeth used on the 25 & 28% units have very high power losses.

                            The 27% unit has much finer teeth and lower power loss, which is why they did it.
                            FYI, the A type unit with its stepped gears has much lower power loss than the J type

                            You will really notice a big difference with top speed and lower gearbox temperatures & higher top speeds.
                            Also, use fully synthetic oil (eg. Motul 300 Gear) and form a duct from under the car to force air cool the box.
                            The whole transmission otherwise on the TR chassis suffers acute overheating because there's no air flow...

                            Slipping in reverse is fixed by changing the cage around the unidirectional clutch and fitting new rollers, as well as using a cone clutch which is not worn where it mates to the annulus.
                            The internal cone clutch is the one most people forget, despite the fact is has to transfer the entire torque of the engine through the box to the diff.
                            When slammed into reverse, the locking action of the planet gear helix angle is reversed, so it's a design weakness of the overdrive.
                            The A type with its stepped gears doesn't have this problem.
                            Last edited by down_the_plug_hole; 13th April 2018, 23:05.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Another update,
                              Progress has been rather slow due to Spring field work on the farm. The wet weather has put me a month behind sowing the grass seed and barley, and now we have had a few dry days I have been working silly hours to get things done. This means if I am not working I am usually too knackered to get out into the garage!
                              I also decided the wire wheels on the TR needed another clean up and repaint, that took about 2 weeks of limited spare time.
                              Last Sunday I did manage to remove the old engine.
                              P1000891 (600 x 450).jpg
                              This took far longer than it should have done, I thought I inserted it with the gearbox attached, but it sure as hell wouldn't come out with it on until I had removed the exhaust manifold on the left hand side. This was rather complicated by the fact I was lifting the engine by said manifold, and had also removed the engine mounts. I ended up putting a few wooden blocks under the sump to rest the engine on while I removed the manifold and fitted a lifting bracket. I think I will put the engine back in without the box!
                              I am going to have to do a fair amount of touching up of the engine bay paintwork now.
                              I realized what caused the crack in the overdrive casing, I used a bolt with a short unthreaded shank and I thought the extra washer I had fitted plus the thickness of the gearbox mount would be sufficient to prevent the unthreaded bit reaching the casing. It didn't by a couple of mm and obviously over-stressed the casing. I am using my spare Stag box with the 28% overdive, it turns out it does have the correct speedo drive gears fitted for the TR.
                              Whenever I have to remove a gearbox I always make sure I fit a new taper pin that locks the clutch fork to the shaft as these are a know weak spot, and I needed to swap the shaft and fork from the other box as the shaft had already been robbed from the spare box. However, as can be seen in the picture below the fork had cracked though the thread. It was only cracked on one side until I came to unscrew the pin which must have been bent. That broke the corner off completely and the pin snapped off in the hole. I then had to drill through the back of the fork so I could punch the pin out to save the shaft. Fortunately I have a spare release fork.
                              Next to the fork is the release bearing carrier. The deep groove next to the left hand roll pin represents the first 70,000 miles of wear done with the first Stag engine in the TR, the shallower one next to the right hand roll pin represents the approx 18,000 miles of wear since the fitting of the second engine. I need to get some more small roll pins, I shall fit a third one and move the thrust point onto another unworn bit.
                              P1000895 (600 x 450).jpg
                              Neil
                              TV8, efi, fast road cams and home built manifolds. 246bhp 220lbft torque

                              Comment

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