Pushing the limits

[jbuckl]

Love this.
I also kind of do this for a living? too.
However, having read the thread, I struggle with all of the weight given to flow bench results. Power & torque curves are the only proof. Although painstaking 'a-b-a-b-a' flow bench results do have a place (of course)
I 'cut my teeth' on a 500Nm siemens eddy current brake testing hand controlled 'o', 't', 'm' & 'k' series turbo & nat asp engines from the plug hole firm (Austin Rover then) the 'real' T series never saw the light of day, but did push the brakes to 500Nm before they were canned. (1990ish)
Some recent flow results we saw didn't correlate to a real benefit, peak flows were at peak lift, naturally, which is too dynamic to predict a useful benefit.
Totally agree with most of the comments I've read from the 'plug hole', both factual, experience & emotional (lol) tick, tick & tick. (only fwiw though)

I did a few layouts for a 32v stag engine some time back now..... started to build it too, but went and bought an SLK32AMG instead or ???? (stag base engine was about £12k, Slk was only slightly more)

#1 thing for all of us seems to be getting parts with suitable quality to fit, never mind improved!!!

Interesting.
I'm not the best person to comment on the success/problems inherent in making a cylinder head for an ancient massey ferguson tractor engine, nor the other nonsense that inevitably follows.
The TR4 head is about the worst possible example to choose.
The alloy ones are a disaster, just like you would expect, from a "just for fun" organisation, not a serious engineering enterprise.

Were you aware the "consulting" muppet for canley classics was going to be ??!
They were intent on making an equally nasty alloy copy of the GT6/TR6 head, so called to "save weight".
Well it would have saved weight making a shiny door stop I guess!

Who was the chap that decided we have to have aluminium front and back plates on those engines again to "save weight" but a ridiculous POS with no rigidity in an accident?

It always revolves around ONE thing.

Would you, seriously want to make copy of a badly flowing, badly burning, failed design?
A badly supported wet liner block then turn into a nasty flexible piece of aluminium rubbish with no OEM design input and no idea what the clamp/thermal loads are going to be.
Egg on faces? Who carries the can?

People like Renault and Peugeot have been making alloy heads on iron wet liner blocks for 60-70 years, but they have serious size industrial muscle and made millions of the things.
Some of their designs are brilliant, which is why their cars win major rally championships like WRC.

Who would you pay to put serious work into replicating decent head porting?
The usual failed culprits?
CNC investment?

Who would do the consulting?

It used to be possible through people like Weslake, (or say Millington for doing blocks), then of course they didn't want their name associated with crap like the A series, B or C series Austin motors, that eventually were churned out.
Would an unhappy consultant want his name on a failed POS?

Would anyone pay properly for this work?
Nah...you gotta be dreaming especially if it's anything at all to do with TR register!

Remember,- This stuff has all be done before from SERIOUS engineering companies who tried to copy and make some improvements (read cock ups) to an original Cosworth design.

I am talking about a behemoth now, of the size of MAHLE attempting to do a better job than Coscast on the Opel XE.
Did it work?
NOPE, ask anyone what head they have on their 280bhp rally escort (With Opel XE engine).
Original COSCAST, or crappy Mahle one?

Another example,- sorry to carry on,- having made, designed and manfactured the only design of exhaust that works on the TR6 engine (in 1982), I know only too well what stupid behaviour goes on behind ones back, and is still going on to this day.

The total band of licencious idiots that suddenly want to take credit it for it, the moment something works like it says on the tin.
That was the reason I sold the vast majority of them in France and Germany or via TSSC
I didn't want any of the British TR5 & TR6 owners involved or their crappy owners club.

I don't play games any more.

If I do the work and if it's crap, it's my fault.
Ie. I do the work, and it's not subcontracted, like nobody else does.

Go ask if "Up yours Uprichard" is capable of flowing a head and making it work on an engine?
He wouldn't know a short side radius from an ostrich egg, which is why his camshafts are simply copies of someone else's work too.

Design?
Do you know anybody these days that actually DESIGNS anything any more, rather than subcontracting to some generic thingy?

Even all the modified valves for TR4 & TR6 are just generic stuff, with not a clue if it's any good. I know that, because I've tested every single one of them on the market for flow & I have spoken at length with the people that make them.

Now, I don't hand any suppliers anything any more, without being 100% sure they're not running off behind my back and sell my hard work to every tom dick and harry.
This is fine if they don't speak English, and are 1500-2500 miles from the foggy island.

....which of course is why I don't work with the British any more (apart from 1 or 2 very rare exceptions...sorry to say!)

I would rather not do the work at all rather than see the total shambles trotted out into the public arena then flogged through flashy ads.
What's even more stupid, people buy loads of it, and none of it works!

Been there done that, got the DVD, it's on UTUBE, don't even need a book, someone copied that too!

[Carboy0]

Likely to be the same for me as it's all be developed as we go along.

[kev100]

Heads flowed, Honda S2000 inlet valves, exhaust tbc, light weight cam followers, springs tbc

Looking forward to your results .. going to be 6 months at least before I start stripping my engine down

[Carboy0]

Heads flowed, Honda S2000 inlet valves, exhaust tbc, light weight cam followers, springs tbc

[kev100]

I'll let you know

How you getting on ?... have you decided what you are changing yet ?..

[Carboy0]

I'll let you know

[Tdm]

Still following this thread with interest, but I have a quick question.

If the numerous proposed modifications to the Stag V8 engine mentioned in this thread were ever to come into fruition, would you lose the unique V8 “burble” that identifies the car as a Stag, and which is high on the list of things that attract potential buyers to the car, and also existing owners love to hear when driving the car, and I'm sure would not want to lose?

Personally I would not like to give up the sound my car makes to gain some extra horsepower and economy (unless of course the new sound bettered the old).

[jagorstag]

Soooo, I suppose the more important question at this point is where to source a reasonably priced drysump kit for either a Lexus 1uz-fe engine or a BMW M60B30 engine...?

Cheers,
Joakim

[Motorsport Micky]

Cold flannel please ...

Micky

[len]

Blimey......

Interesting.
I'm not the best person to comment on the success/problems inherent in making a cylinder head for an ancient massey ferguson tractor engine, nor the other nonsense that inevitably follows.
The TR4 head is about the worst possible example to choose.
The alloy ones are a disaster, just like you would expect, from a "just for fun" organisation, not a serious engineering enterprise.

Were you aware the "consulting" muppet for canley classics was going to be ??!
They were intent on making an equally nasty alloy copy of the GT6/TR6 head, so called to "save weight".
Well it would have saved weight making a shiny door stop I guess!

Who was the chap that decided we have to have aluminium front and back plates on those engines again to "save weight" but a ridiculous POS with no rigidity in an accident?

It always revolves around ONE thing.

Would you, seriously want to make copy of a badly flowing, badly burning, failed design?
A badly supported wet liner block then turn into a nasty flexible piece of aluminium rubbish with no OEM design input and no idea what the clamp/thermal loads are going to be.
Egg on faces? Who carries the can?

People like Renault and Peugeot have been making alloy heads on iron wet liner blocks for 60-70 years, but they have serious size industrial muscle and made millions of the things.
Some of their designs are brilliant, which is why their cars win major rally championships like WRC.

Who would you pay to put serious work into replicating decent head porting?
The usual failed culprits?
CNC investment?

Who would do the consulting?

It used to be possible through people like Weslake, (or say Millington for doing blocks), then of course they didn't want their name associated with crap like the A series, B or C series Austin motors, that eventually were churned out.
Would an unhappy consultant want his name on a failed POS?

Would anyone pay properly for this work?
Nah...you gotta be dreaming especially if it's anything at all to do with TR register!

Remember,- This stuff has all be done before from SERIOUS engineering companies who tried to copy and make some improvements (read cock ups) to an original Cosworth design.

I am talking about a behemoth now, of the size of MAHLE attempting to do a better job than Coscast on the Opel XE.
Did it work?
NOPE, ask anyone what head they have on their 280bhp rally escort (With Opel XE engine).
Original COSCAST, or crappy Mahle one?

Another example,- sorry to carry on,- having made, designed and manfactured the only design of exhaust that works on the TR6 engine (in 1982), I know only too well what stupid behaviour goes on behind ones back, and is still going on to this day.

The total band of licencious idiots that suddenly want to take credit it for it, the moment something works like it says on the tin.
That was the reason I sold the vast majority of them in France and Germany or via TSSC
I didn't want any of the British TR5 & TR6 owners involved or their crappy owners club.

I don't play games any more.

If I do the work and if it's crap, it's my fault.
Ie. I do the work, and it's not subcontracted, like nobody else does.

Go ask if "Up yours Uprichard" is capable of flowing a head and making it work on an engine?
He wouldn't know a short side radius from an ostrich egg, which is why his camshafts are simply copies of someone else's work too.

Design?
Do you know anybody these days that actually DESIGNS anything any more, rather than subcontracting to some generic thingy?

Even all the modified valves for TR4 & TR6 are just generic stuff, with not a clue if it's any good. I know that, because I've tested every single one of them on the market for flow & I have spoken at length with the people that make them.

Now, I don't hand any suppliers anything any more, without being 100% sure they're not running off behind my back and sell my hard work to every tom dick and harry.
This is fine if they don't speak English, and are 1500-2500 miles from the foggy island.

....which of course is why I don't work with the British any more (apart from 1 or 2 very rare exceptions...sorry to say!)

I would rather not do the work at all rather than see the total shambles trotted out into the public arena then flogged through flashy ads.
What's even more stupid, people buy loads of it, and none of it works!

Been there done that, got the DVD, it's on UTUBE, don't even need a book, someone copied that too!

[Motorsport Micky]

TR Register did that with the remade TR 4 cylinder heads made in cast iron as per original and alloy. Arranged with Moss and completed in ( I think a 3 year time frame). Some of the inherent head foibles were designed out (but of course they still retain some "wrinkles" depending upon who you speak to). Successful venture whatever the outcome of discussions between the involved parties threw up and is now keeping 60 year old cars on the road. Pricing about £1500 cast or £2000 alloy I believe, (never bought one) but whatever the shortcomings they were envisaged, engineered and then made.

Micky

why not incorporate all these features in the new millennium heads .. or just redesign a new head as I see it the costs would not be far off.

The clue you wrote it yourself is "17 years late".

I actually did meet the guy who was doing that project and it got no further than an interesting discussion about quality control issues. Apparently the project was a handful of thorns!

Not wishing to get more sharp prickles in my own fingers, I realised it was best left at that.

The major problem is, there has to be some kind of definition of "the right way to go about things'.
That involves close coordination between people who may have widely differing views, sharply divided opinions, and even less knowledge about what constitutes value for money.

Not wishing to get into the middle of all that, I would prefer to steer a mile away from doing:-

1/ Anything in with a UK based operation ever again.

2/ Projects that are liable to cause friction AND become money pits without anyone ever being happy.

3/ Anything where I don't have personal control & responsibility for what does or doesn't happen AND a good explanation why in the UK it is invariably LATE.

Having lived through yet another UK export disaster, being supplied with the WRONG EFI system* for a simple Austin Mini, despite supplying, year, VIN code et al, I'm seriously looking to reduce risk to the minimum possible.

(*I got fobbed off all over again with all kinds of excuses, then have to explain the mess in multiple foreign languages as usual, WTF was going on! I just turned down doing a 20 grand Bentley engine job for precisely the same reasons... )

[Seaking]

Just a thought why not incorporate all these features in the new mellennium heads that are 17 years late or just redesign a new head as I see it the costs would not be far off.

Cheers Glenn

[mole42]

Just off-topic for a minute, here's a lovely film with Walter Hassan & Harry Mundy talking about their new Jaguar V-12 engine:

https://youtu.be/pPxpPYLW4kw