Soft Top Frame realignment - Just how hard is it?

[ChasR]

A stupid question but I do wish to narrow down my options and confirm them. it was a job I was putting off until next year, but it is amazing the effects the sun can have on you and well it would be an excuse to get the hard top off.

Just how involved is it straightening a frame on a Stag (can it be done on the car), or does the roof need to be on a jig ideally? My frame is not broken and the pivot points are all intact but it is stiff (this could also be down to having a very old soft top on it) and it catches the rear seat side trims unless two of us force them in) in addition to the seal at the top of the window being a perfect fit on the driver's side but being a little higher on the passenger's side.

I have previously changed hoods on an MGB and Midget but I understand a Stag can be a different kettle of fish.

[staginhiding]

Not as easy as MG etc.Be prepared for hours of frustration..

[Seaking]

Contact V mad he is very helpful and will send pics also has spare parts so you can swap out bent bits on yours i did my own with photos chris sent me

[jakesmig]

I did my hood a couple of years ago, not complicated but you need to take your time. If your frame is tight you're resonably lucky, most are probably loose with worn bolt holes. Take the old hood off and set your frame up, freeing the joints and straightening out kinks in bars here and there till it all moves smoothly. I seem to recall getting the 'fish hook' section of the frames was the important part, score there and the rest seems to follow on.
Take care of the swivel joints at each end of the header rail these can be delicate and are a pain to repair neatly. Get the rail folding smoothly and in a patern that looks 'right' and you shouldn't have any problem. Remember to fit the retaining hooks which secures the slampanel railduring stowage before you start fitting the hood.
Good luck,
John

[SwissSteve]

that would be a useful entry in the howto section. purhaps VMad might release a video if asked nicely

I did my hood a couple of years ago, not complicated but you need to take your time. If your frame is tight you're resonably lucky, most are probably loose with worn bolt holes. Take the old hood off and set your frame up, freeing the joints and straightening out kinks in bars here and there till it all moves smoothly. I seem to recall getting the 'fish hook' section of the frames was the important part, score there and the rest seems to follow on.
Take care of the swivel joints at each end of the header rail these can be delicate and are a pain to repair neatly. Get the rail folding smoothly and in a patern that looks 'right' and you shouldn't have any problem. Remember to fit the retaining hooks which secures the slampanel railduring stowage before you start fitting the hood.
Good luck,
John

[ChasR]

Indeed I may chat to V Mad shortly about the roof. I'll take your advice on board John since during winter I will have some time to spend on the car now that I have a daily driver sorted .

John, which fishhooks are you referring to?

Regarding the safety catches how do you go about doing that on a Mk1 frame (which is what I assume I have?) Currently I have no catches on both, but it appears I can only fit the hook to the LHS and not the right (I understand a spring system fits on that side but finding it has proved tricky).

The choice I face at the moment is to get a replacement hood and frame if I cannot salvage mine or spend that cash (and less!) sorting out my other issues (rear wheel bearings, springs all round, and a couple of minor interior issues). The sunshine however out there does make that choice a little trickier and illogical .

[jakesmig]

Indeed I may chat to V Mad shortly about the roof. I'll take your advice on board John since during winter I will have some time to spend on the car now that I have a daily driver sorted .

John, which fishhooks are you referring to?

Regarding the safety catches how do you go about doing that on a Mk1 frame (which is what I assume I have?) Currently I have no catches on both, but it appears I can only fit the hook to the LHS and not the right (I understand a spring system fits on that side but finding it has proved tricky).

The choice I face at the moment is to get a replacement hood and frame if I cannot salvage mine or spend that cash (and less!) sorting out my other issues (rear wheel bearings, springs all round, and a couple of minor interior issues). The sunshine however out there does make that choice a little trickier and illogical .

The 'fishhooks' as I call them are the bars which connect the slampanel rail to the main frame down near the pivot point. Mine originally had a slight twist, and with the rigidity of the slampanel they seemed to apply undue pressure to the main frame, Once I had played about with the hooks the frame seemed to sit easier and move more freely.
There are five points of the hood you have to get right, the 2 screen locking pins, the slam panel pin and the clearance of the frame at the top of the B post. If the frame sits slightly low the frame bumps on the B post when opening which can be a pest. All the rest has to do is fold smoothly enough to achieve these targets.
My frame was loose and sloppy at the joints because of worn and oval bolt holes so I machined slightly oversized fixings and rebored the holes to suit, and also inreased the slam panel pin up to M8. Judicious fettling with a 2Lb ball pin hammer straightened out any kinks in the linkages. Remember to adjust the slampanel rail down onto the tonneau panel so that it will seal properly when closed.
Regarding the safety catches, IMO only having one fitted tends to twist the frame when pulling the hood up out of the storage well which cannot be particulary good for it. I fitted one to each side and i think I had to drill holes in the frame to take one of them. You will see a 'top hat' stud on the slampanel, this is what kliks into the safety catch. Set your frame up so that it hits the five points as above and it has been fully adjusted and is ready for the hood. open up the frame and pin it to the screen rail, lift the slampanel up to the storage position and marry up the catches to the top hat and the fixing holes in the frame rail, once satisfied, mark and fix. You may, probably will, have to bend /persuade the frame rail over to the proper gap.
Once all that is done you should be ready for fitting the hood. Find the centre points of the front and rear of both the rails and hood and everything goes from there, take your time and you'll get there. When you've located the hood to the frame, use contact adhesive to fix the front and rear, let it set then gently operate the hood to see if it works as it should. Don't fit riveted alloy channels or trim excess until you are happy with the placement. Glued items can be peeled back and adjusted, riveted and trimmed cannot without knock on effects.
Remember, you've set the frame to the car, you're now fitting the hood to the frame, leave the frame alone - adjust the hood to the frame.
Now that I've bored the arse off you, please remember one thing above all else, I am an amatuer at all of this, there are many on the forum with greater knowledge than me who will probably advise you better, all i can say is the above worked successfully for me, I don't often drive with the hood up, but when I do, it doesn't leak and doesn't have much wind noise.
Rgds,
John.

[ChasR]

Not bored at all John, thank you for the informative post! It certainly has given me some scope on trying to get my soft top to work one last time .

[Firept]

John / Anyone.
Is there a good reason why the hood where it fits to the vertical of the B post the vertical covering flaps go out side of the B post stainless trim does this give the best seal? I would have thought that there needs to be a small recess that the hood flap tucks into so that the air / rain flowing down the side of the car when driving passes over the top of the hood where at present the flaps sitting outside of the B post tend to act as flaps / air brakes and direct the water in to the joint between the B post and the upright of the frame, I know it has a seal but could this be designed better?

Any thoughts?

John, good description of fitting.

Paul.

[V Mad]

On the Mk2 frames there are two side catches, both with spring detents. The Mk1 has only one sprung catch on one side, the other side has a drop catch that relies on gravity for its operation. Its best to convert both to Mk2 catches. Even then the top hat striker will probably not line up with the catch because the frames usually bend. This will require some 'tweaking' to get them to line up, either on the J leg (fish hook) or the main bow. Give me a call if you want and I will talk you through it. 07990 718377

[jakesmig]

Paul,
I daresay there could have been a better way of sealing against the B post, but for a 60's design I think the Stag hood in appearance and operation is quite ellegant I quite like the look of the hood / B post detail and if the hood is adjusted nicely it sits quite tight against the post and doesn't seem to flap.
I suppose the hardtop detailing was a solution to the winter weather, not that I've got one, perish the thought

V Mad,
J leg beats my fish hook description any day of the week. Totally agree with your Mk2 catches view, feel that any tweeking needs to be done on the main bow rather than the j leg which is probably too rigid because of the slampannel,

Rgds,
John.

[V Mad]

Hi John
We could call it a whale fish hook!

The sequence I use to 'tweak' the frames is get the main bow right first then fix the J-legs. There is a jig hole at the base of the main bow each side which locks it to the mounting plate assembly, so I lock these together first (special jig bolts mentioned in the ROM). Then tweak the bow until the front levers line up with front mountings. Then check if side catch strikers line up - if not take off J-legs and straighten them. Its surprising how twisted they can get!

There are of course many other parts to tweak as well.

[SwissSteve]

My problem is that I am unable to get the catches to hold when I am stowing the hood. So when I bring it back up, the part with the rear window is released and I have great difficulty to bring it up. I usually use a peice of plastic so as not to damage the fabric and this works just.

The other problem I have is that when closing the hood. The bolts on either side catch on the top edges of the sides of the back seats. I need to pull the brame on each side to get it closed so that it does not damage the edge on the rear seats.

Is it possible to correct these errors without taking the hood off the car?

[jakesmig]

My problem is that I am unable to get the catches to hold when I am stowing the hood. So when I bring it back up, the part with the rear window is released and I have great difficulty to bring it up. I usually use a peice of plastic so as not to damage the fabric and this works just.

The other problem I have is that when closing the hood. The bolts on either side catch on the top edges of the sides of the back seats. I need to pull the brame on each side to get it closed so that it does not damage the edge on the rear seats.

Is it possible to correct these errors without taking the hood off the car?

The slampanel catches can adjust up / down & front / rear to a certain extent and if working correctly will self close when the panel is lifted up and the catches hit the 'top hat'. look closely at the catch when closing. does it align with the 'top hat' on the slam panel, does the frame need pulled out to align or can you adjust on the catch mounting bolts? Trouble is, if the rear panel doesn;t come up easilly when opening it can put a fair stress on the rest of the frame when forcing it out so it is fairly important to get this working correctly, not just as a convenience.
The frame is fairly robust and will take reasonable force to straighten out / realign if required, I was fairly brutal with mine and it now works quite well. Take care with fore near the bolt areas, the thin web left by the drilling is a weak area which needs treated with care.
If you have bolts hitting the sides of the back seats it sounds as if your J hooks are perhaps twisted and bringing the assembly inward. This may be affecting the catches as well. If it was me, I'd try persuading them apart with a jack to see if that would make a difference. It doesn't sound as if you need to impose much adjustment to overcome that problem.
If you need to straighten a badly distorted member it is possible to virtually dismantle the whole frame bit by bit without removing the hood from the car, tricky but do-able, the front header, slampanel and main frame and cross supports would stay.
Good luck,
John

[V Mad]

Steve, as John says there is some vertical adjustment of the catches, but usually not enough. If the catches are working porperly, and have their springs intact, then the reason they are dropping out is misalignment. Possible to correct with frame in the car but awkward.

Not sure about the rear seat, I cant imagine that. Usually the frame catches the vinyl on the quarter panels not the seat.