Fitting Timing Chains

[jezzer]

I'm after some advice/technical knowledge. Before I begin I must state that I am a Stag owner without much technical/mechanical 'know-how'. As such when the car started 'pinking' a couple of months ago I entrusted it to the car mechanic I have used for many years and has always done a good job on various VWs and Peugeots I have owned. He's also of an age to have worked on cars from the 60's and 70's and assured me he has worked on Stags in the past.

So he performed various pressure tests including what I believe is called a 'block' test and surmised that a cylinder head gasket had 'blown'. So began an operation that has been going on for more than 2 months and is still not complete. The initial problem he faced was the removal of the cylinder head studs which I believe is a not uncommon problem. The head itself was then found to require skimming which I was a bit surprised at since the engine I had been told was reconditioned and had done less than 10000 miles (I have only owned the car for a year). Once all that had been done I was looking forward to getting the car back and seeing an improvement in performance - it had been quite sluggish moving off. But then the real problems began. The mechanic, who owns his own garage, then went on holiday and left the car in the hands of one of his other mechanics. This guy was unable to re-fit the timing chains and believed that the only way to do so would be to remove the entire front-end of the engine. This they have so far been unable to do!

So my main question is did they really need to take apart the entire front end of the engine to replace the timing chains?

And with regards advice, should i now tell the mechanics to stop working on the car and get it transported to a garage who specialise in Stags - there is one quite close by but they are very expensive.

Any comments/feedback greatly appreciated.

[Stagdad]

If they have let the chain tensioners slip out then yes the front has to come off and I would definatly get someone who knows stags to finish it.sounds like they have already cost you loads by not properly bolting the cam sprockets to the bracket to stop the chains moving .
Cheers Steve

[Staggard]

The problem is with these cars (classics) Your mechanic may well have worked on Stags IN THE PAST but this could have been 35-40 years ago ( you see my point) you need to choose a specialist mechanic that work's on there vehicle's all the time. I don't know how busy he is but Russ (Kryten) is well known on this forum for his expertise and he is also in the London area. Graham

[Richard]

Hi jezzer sorry to hear about your stag problems!! Im so glad i that i can do all my own repairs (couldnt afford to have one if i didnt) . It is very common to have problems removing the head studs and ive heard of various stories of solving it from raising the heads enough to saw them off , to the extreme solution of actually smashing the heads off!! (this happened to a friend of mine who used a mobile mechanic to do his head gaskets) . To replace the timing chains you do have to remove the front cover but its no big problem and changing the chains and tensioners should be a straight forward affair for any competant mechanic !!!! Hope you get sorted soon Richard

[V Mad]

It's a bit hard to see the link between pinking and a head gasket failure. Pinking is usually caused by ignition timing being too far advanced. I wonder what led him to that conclusion?

[SUTTY1]

Can't over-heating cause pinking? steve

[stag157.7]

or in other words

it aint a head gasket
Pinking, Pre-ignition and detonation are three seperate things.

First off, people should realise that the combustion process involves burning the fuel air mix in a controlled manner, it does not explode.

Pinking- Caused by over advanced ignition which gives the spark too early in the cycle. The combustion process is trying to work against the upward movement of the piston. Noise is like a "tinkling" sound. Used to happen a lot in my first fiesta, 1.1L Mk1 when labouring the engine.

Pre-Ignition- Similar to pinking but is the mixture is ignited before the spark is created, often by carbon deposits in the chamber that glow red hot. Same sound as pinking.

Detonation- Is when the mixture literally explodes instead of a controlled burn. It can be caused by a number of factors including too high boost pressure if a turbo or too high compression ratio, lean fuel/air ratios etc. The temperature within the combustion chamber reaches extreme levels which causes the mixture to explode. Detonation causes great damage to pistons, heads etc.

[Moraystag]

Yes Jezzer you do have to take the front cover off the engine along with the radiator removal, alternator etc. To be honest I did my timing chains myself in the winter with the help of Tony Harts C.D. which I could not have been without.
You look like you are where I was 4 x years ago when I first owned a Stag, that is entrusting it with people who really do not know what they are doing, and charging an absolute fortune for their ignorance.
My advise to you would be to start getting into the oily bits. I do more to mine than I would ever have imagined, and with the R.O.M. and the help of some of the guy's on this forum you will get a shed load of support. To be honest it's half the fun really, mind you I have been in positions where I have bitten off more than I could chew, but again the lads on here can point you in the right direction.
Good luck with your chains.

Mike

[martin]

Yes Jezzer you do have to take the front cover off the engine along with the radiator removal, alternator etc. To be honest I did my timing chins myself in the winter with the help of Tony Harts C.D. which I could not have been without.
You look like you are where I was 4 x years ago when I first owned a Stag, that is entrusting it with people who really do not know what they are doing, and charging an absolute fortune for their ignorance.
My advise to you would be to start getting into the oily bits. I do more to mine than I would ever have imagined, and with the R.O.M. and the help of some of the guy's on this forum you will get a shed load of support. To be honest it's half the fun really, mind you I have been in positions where I have bitten off more than I could chew, but again the lads on here can point you in the right direction.
Good luck with your chains.

Mike

How many have you got ?

[Moraystag]

Martin, What you on about I can't see this on my post, or maybe the spelling fairy has changed it for me LOL

[martin]

You changed it you little monkey

[StagnJag]

...

My advise to you would be to start getting into the oily bits. I do more to mine than I would ever have imagined, and with the R.O.M. and the help of some of the guy's on this forum you will get a shed load of support. To be honest it's half the fun really, mind you I have been in positions where I have bitten off more than I could chew, but again the lads on here can point you in the right direction.
Good luck with your chains.

Mike

I'm with you on that one!

I knew a little bit of basic mechanical stuff before owning my Stag and I have now done things I would never have imagined I would attempt a few years ago, mainly thanks to reading and asking shed loads on here. I have made a good few friends along the way and met a lot of people as well.

I don't expect to get it all right first time and there are a few things I have had to do several times over, but that's just part of the learning curve. I haven't had to tackle timing chains yet, but when the time comes I have every intention of giving it a go!

Rgds

Dave

[StagnJag]

or in other words

it ain't a head gasket
Pinking, Pre-ignition and detonation are three seperate things.

First off, people should realise that the combustion process involves burning the fuel air mix in a controlled manner, it does not explode.

Pinking- Caused by over advanced ignition which gives the spark too early in the cycle. The combustion process is trying to work against the upward movement of the piston. Noise is like a "tinkling" sound. Used to happen a lot in my first fiesta, 1.1L Mk1 when labouring the engine.

Pre-Ignition- Similar to pinking but is the mixture is ignited before the spark is created, often by carbon deposits in the chamber that glow red hot. Same sound as pinking.

Detonation- Is when the mixture literally explodes instead of a controlled burn. It can be caused by a number of factors including too high boost pressure if a turbo or too high compression ratio, lean fuel/air ratios etc. The temperature within the combustion chamber reaches extreme levels which causes the mixture to explode. Detonation causes great damage to pistons, heads etc.

If anyone (Al I know you don't need it ) wants to learn a bit more about the intricacies of engines, I bought myself a copy of the "Engine Builders Handbook" a while back. Not the most exciting read, but certainly gives some useful information. It has the most detailed description of the stages in a four stroke that I have ever seen! A good bedside read to put you to sleep!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Builders-Handbook-HP1245-Monroe/dp/1557882452/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1344010310&sr=1-1

Rgds

Dave

[71Stag]

Hi Jezzer
Which side of London are you?
Cheers
Bruce

[olwen]

Hi trying to read up on the timing chain problem, would not have this problem if my late husband was here. My 1971 stag developed a top rattle still drove but being brought up to listen to my engine I only drove it home around a couple of miles. My impression is the timing chain rattliing just developed but yes buying the tony hart video because my youngest son was hoping to tackle the job, he is worried that it could be worse than just timing chain. Is there anyone out there who could give him some advice please. I know we have Wards at Leicester but obviously now I am reluctant to drive it anywhere. Tony Harts video is a little misleading however I thought further damage could not happen if the chains have not broken, plus it has only just developed this noise. thanks Olwen