350 degrees just ain't enough....

[Stagsongas]

Firstly, my thanks to a member (1959 Terry) who kindly posted a link to an advert a week or 3 ago, I looked at and bought a dismantled and barely begun restoration project which was only an hour from home;

http://www.stag.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?25100-Early-stag-for-sale

I'll be running a restoration thread on it to keep things tidy and together, but I hit the first problem before even talking money on the car, and I'd be grateful of suggestions as to what might be wrong.

Although advertised as 'was running' and 'engine turns' or similar, it doesn't. I took the precaution of turning it by hand (by stilson actually). It turns 350 degrees or thereabouts and then it stops, and it isn't a mushy stop either, it stops dead. I bought it anyway (reduced price of course) as I reasoned that a finished shell will put me somewhere in front if all else fails, but I would have liked to run the engine just to evaluate it before I take it out to do the full job on the shell.

First thoughts were a valve or two might be stuck open, but rotating the engine to and fro those 350 deg.s with the cam covers off shows all the buckets coming back up, and I reasoned that the buckets are coming back up because they are being pushed back up by the closing valves. The only way I can think of my theory being incorrect here is if a valve head were broken off and sitting on top of a piston, whereas the remaining stem and spring may still push its respective bucket back up.

Another guess was that one or two of the bores are rusted at the top of the stroke, but after sending some squirts of auto fluid down the spark plug holes and working it all a little by hand 3 days ago, nothing has changed and I'm unwilling to force it.

A third idea is that something went down a bore at some point and now sits on top of a piston, but although I have a camera on a stick, the head of it is not small enough to go down a spark plug hole.
I think the next move might be to borrow/buy a borescope as they are always useful, this might show me what is wrong but at the moment I guess I'd rather be buying paint and panels.

So, any other ideas or flaws found in my thinking?

Regards

Steve

[dasadrew]

Before you buy a borescope, buy one of those cheapo magnets-on-a-wire thingies and poke about down the plug holes. If it's something metallic and not stainless steel you might be able to fish something out.

[jakesmig]

Cam jumped a tooth or two and the pistons touch valves?

John

[73stagman]

anything is possible from all those things mentioned to broken con rod and seized piston..... just being dramatic but its a possibility.
Maybe even a stuck jack shaft
either way the engine has to come apart to fix it so take the heads off and see whats going on.

[1959terry]

Steve, glad someone in the club saved this car as there are not many "J" plate cars on the road. With regards to the engine, have you had all the plugs out as one of the cylinders may have water in it? Or as you state below a valve head may have snapped off. I would suggest pulling the heads off as a precaution. Terry

[Stagsongas]

Before you buy a borescope, buy one of those cheapo magnets-on-a-wire thingies and poke about down the plug holes. If it's something metallic and not stainless steel you might be able to fish something out.

Good idea Drew. I've got a couple of those, broken a little short as they stick to everything on the way down, bend and eventually break, but there will be enough left to do that, I'll try it tomorrow and let you know.

Thanks.

Steve

[Stagsongas]

Cam jumped a tooth or two and the pistons touch valves?

John

Could be John, easily. I'll check the timing if the Drew trick doesn't hole it in one.

Thanks

Steve

[Stagsongas]

anything is possible from all those things mentioned to broken con rod and seized piston..... just being dramatic but its a possibility.
Maybe even a stuck jack shaft
either way the engine has to come apart to fix it so take the heads off and see whats going on.

Agreed, could be those and more I guess.

I'm still placing faith in the seller's description as he seemed genuinely surprised it would not rotate, so up to now I've been thinking of everything that could have gone wrong after it was left in a cranking condition, e.g. corrosion etc.

If it's anything else then it might prove the description was inaccurate, but Caveat Emptor etc. and I did knock a good whack off the asking price.

I'd just have liked to run it before removal, there is just a tiny chance that it is in perfect condition (a slim chance I know!) but failing that, removed and unproven it's coming to bits, and I'd prefer to pull the heads etc. with it out of the body, not when I'm putting shine on the body.

Thanks

Steve

[flying farmer]

The usual problem is a bent valve hitting the piston, valves or buckets stick when the engine hasn't been turned for a while, and if turned on the key contact between valve and piston occurs.

This was exactly the problem that had occurred on the engine that is currently fitted to the TR, when I bought it as a non runner I found it had been rebored and everything in the engine was brand new. It had stood for years as part of an abandoned restoration, which was sold to Marty at Justriumph. He said it drove onto the trailer but was misfiring, and subsequently stood for another year or two which allowed a leaky inlet manifold gasket to not only further corrode the sticking valve but also the cylinder bore to the extent that it seized solid and needed a liner fitting.

It may be a foreign object in the bore, but believe me it is impossible to remove anything in there, I tried for hours with magnets, hooks and compressed air, even a vacuum cleaner when I dropped a little washer down an open inlet valve a couple of years ago, I had to get the head off to shift it.

Neil

[73stagman]

the rover v8 in my car was exactly the same. would only turn 7 /8ths of a turn. One valve was stuck solid. with the rockers removed the valve was still stuck down... a dead give away. However once the head was off the valve just tapped back home....
the bigger issue turned out to be a broken main bearing cap...... you just never know what you will find when you undo someone elses work!
The rebuilt engine I bought had dropped valves at sometime in its life and the "muck an ic" just replaced the broken valves and stuck the head back on leaving the mangled piston in place!

[Stagsongas]

Steve, glad someone in the club saved this car as there are not many "J" plate cars on the road. With regards to the engine, have you had all the plugs out as one of the cylinders may have water in it? Or as you state below a valve head may have snapped off. I would suggest pulling the heads off as a precaution. Terry

Hi Terry,

Thanks once more for the link. Don't get the idea I'm disappointed now, I knew the risks and I won't lose out however it unfolds.

I too would like to see it back on the road, the direction it will take in restoration to final form (could be anything from concours to heavily modified) is something we can discuss on the actual restoration thread, and that doesn't have to be determined right now. The bodyshell has to be repaired properly and painted properly whatever direction the car takes.

Yes, I did have all the plugs out - before the recovery guy got out of my gate. No 8 plug (only) had rust closing the electrode gap in a way that you only see when a cylinder has been full of water, but the cylinder is dry now and it isn't that piston that is rising when the engine stops turning. The entire cooling system is empty too - worst fear is that it was filled with water only, cracking the block on freezing and the water draining away during a thaw.

Like I say, I took it on with open eyes, but not all is visible. If I don't get lucky I'll pull the engine and then pull the heads....Maybe.... from what I've heard!

Regards

Steve

[Stagsongas]

The usual problem is a bent valve hitting the piston, valves or buckets stick when the engine hasn't been turned for a while, and if turned on the key contact between valve and piston occurs.

This was exactly the problem that had occurred on the engine that is currently fitted to the TR, when I bought it as a non runner I found it had been rebored and everything in the engine was brand new. It had stood for years as part of an abandoned restoration, which was sold to Marty at Justriumph. He said it drove onto the trailer but was misfiring, and subsequently stood for another year or two which allowed a leaky inlet manifold gasket to not only further corrode the sticking valve but also the cylinder bore to the extent that it seized solid and needed a liner fitting.

It may be a foreign object in the bore, but believe me it is impossible to remove anything in there, I tried for hours with magnets, hooks and compressed air, even a vacuum cleaner when I dropped a little washer down an open inlet valve a couple of years ago, I had to get the head off to shift it.

Neil

Neil,

That really fits in terms of what the PO said (I like to believe people) and what I feel now. It stops so solidly it's as if something is in there.

Regards

Steve

[Stagsongas]

the rover v8 in my car was exactly the same. would only turn 7 /8ths of a turn. One valve was stuck solid. with the rockers removed the valve was still stuck down... a dead give away. However once the head was off the valve just tapped back home....
the bigger issue turned out to be a broken main bearing cap...... you just never know what you will find when you undo someone elses work!
The rebuilt engine I bought had dropped valves at sometime in its life and the "muck an ic" just replaced the broken valves and stuck the head back on leaving the mangled piston in place!

I once bought a 6 cyl Jag at auction, clearly running only on 5.

No matter what I did, it would not run on 6, so comp. checked it - no comp on No 6. Off came the head, but the valves were perfect, both like new. Piston No 6 was missing, some clever dick had found the damage valve contact had caused, put new ones but then took out the damaged piston complete with its con-rod, then put it in the sale

RV8's are well known for that sticky valve problem for some reason, I've had one or three do it. I just question whether TV8 buckets would still lift back up with a valve stuck down, unless they have the valve head broken off of course

As you know your RV8's well, a little off topic question if I may;

I tried to fathom a badly running RV8 for someone today, did all the usual but it seems as if it is not breathing properly on all 8, although all compressions are excellent. Wasn't the RV8 known for wearing the lobes off its cam? That would fit the symptoms!

Regards

Steve

[73stagman]

The Rover engine has its own foibles! Valve gear oil pump camshaft wear.......

[Stagsongas]

The Rover engine has its own foibles! Valve gear oil pump camshaft wear.......

Well don't they all