Mk1 0r 2 - can anyone advise please?

[Registrar]

Wow, this is getting good !

Thanks Steve D. You have standard Mk1 heads on your car. Nice and clean too. Wish mine were like that.

Dave: some of that junk is now in my garage and may well be used in the restoration of my prototype as I am putting together an early non HE engine on an early ESS block (4 bolt crank, Federal dished pistons, early heads, early thermostat, early inlet manifold, Anti-smog system, etc. Thank you for selling it to Mr. O'Neill and Mr. O'Verloaded.

If anyone has the Federal anti-smog components for use in a good cause, please let me know.

Pete, So that makes the set of later Mk1 heads (LH in the last pic and RH in his one). Well spotted - the RHB in the casting. I will have a look at the other heads I have here and see if there are any with RHB on them. If everyone else reading could do the same we may learn something else. We need the V number and long number of any heads which have the RHB on them. By the way, does the LH head also have this on it ? Or does it have LHB ? The underlining of the R is also of interest and I wonder why they bothered with the full stops ? All this stuff was there for a reason as nobody would randomly include these marks in a casting just for the fun of it.

Sad ? Yes, and I make no apology for being so. Sorry.

Peter

[redstag]

Hi Peter,

The LH head (with underlining)

Pete

IMG_20180909_103349.jpg

[Registrar]

Ah ! A big underline and no B. I haven't looked at any of mine yet but I'll let you all know if I find anything. Meanwhile anyone else with LH / RH / RHB / LHB or anything else, please let me know.

Two further things:

Julian Leyton (I'm sure that some of you will remember Julian) contacted me to tell me that he remembers an idea at BL where they wanted to distinguish between Triumph & Rover parts and thought of adding 88 to the front of Triumph numbers and 90 to the front of Rover numbers. He doesn't think that this got very far but this is something to bear in mind in the future.

Speaking of which:

One of my other projects is to find out when they started to make ESS engines. As far as I can make out, they made somewehere over 3,000 of these (as that is the area of the highest number I have been told of by members so far). I have LF 175 ESS here so if I can find out when they made that, it will provide a good starting point. It is noted that this ESS engine has a casting number 88309123 (it looks like a 3 but may be a bad 8 or 5). If Julian is right, this would put the date of this block at some time after they started looking at adding the 88 to numbers. Therefore, if we can nail down which blocks have a number starting with an 88 and which do not have 88 in the casting number, then we can date the changeover time because I have the ability to date the engine numbers (give or take a month).

To make life a little bit more interesting, the 2 blocks I have so far looked at also have a V number - one appears to be V3176 and the other V3170 but they are difficult to read so they may both be V3176.

So, the next thing to find out is which blocks have 88 in the casting number. If anyone wants to take part in this little exercise, both these numbers are cast into the right hand side of the block, forward of the oil filter, between cylinders 3 & 5 on the relatively flat panel immediately above the sump. I need the two numbers and the engine number.

Peter

[Wisey]

Hi Peter, My engine is not the car's original and was rebuilt with "new" heads by the PO. So no provenance....
Current engine number LF109**HEBW, original engine LF21524BW (car hertitage cert, Man O/D as previously discussed).
Hope that helps...
Steve

[Registrar]

Thanks Steve, it looks as if most, if not all, heads have the LH and RH cast in. You have prompted me to go and look at the heads here and not just fire away in keybooard warrior mode. So now the question is 'where did the 'B' come from on Pete's RH head and why doesn't his LH head have tat as well' ? My feeling is thatn this question may well be a bit more difficult to answer tahn some of the others.

Peter

[davidf]

Just checked in my garage

My first Stag was LD21917O, purchased in 1983, written off after fire damage in 1996. In 1984, I bought a DIY new engine from SNG Barratt, consisting of short engine, 2 head assemblies, two pumps, timing chain set and gaskets. The short engine supplied was LF3706ESS (which increases your range of ESS engine numbers). However, I rejected that, and 5 more at Canley (then Unipart Major Assemblies depot), ending up with LF3569ESS.
The new heads supplied in 1984 are marked as your Mk2:- V3293/4 and 88313210/1. Front marking LH and RH (no B)

That engine is now in my current car, which is LD1194# (no suffix letters as it was built with non O/d manual box). First reg 13/04/1972, but I don't know the build date.
The engine supplied with my current car, which I believe to be its original engine, was LF10477HE, block casting marked V3176 and 88309123. The head castings are marked identically to my new (1984) ones.
All heads that I have seen have the foundry marks AM and AE (as seen in Steved's photos) This was the mark of Aeroplane and Motor Aluminium Castings Ltd of Bromford Lane/Wood Lane, Birmingham, who were acquired by the Associated Engineering Group in 1954 (hence the 2 marks). I recognised it when I had my first Stag, as I used to work close by there, and saw the logo on the factory.
I just hope their Quality processes for Aeroplanes were better than for Motor; I also rejected one of my new heads in 1984 as the casting was defective. the main water passage from the rear transfer housing to the inlet manifold connections was blocked because the core moulding had cracked during casting, leaving a thin, uneven film of aluminium blocking the passage. Despite this, they had at least removed all the core, a practice which unfortunately was not followed at the Beans Industries foundry where the blocks were cast.

[Chris.Liles]

Pete,
Yes it was me from whom Chris acquired a pile of spares. It was about 10 years ago when I had to clear it out of my late Mother’s garage. How he got that heavily overloaded car and trailer back to Norfolk, I don’t know! There were several blocks and heads in the load.

We left yours at Exeter, Dave with my trailer on its bump stops & Audi A6 estate bonnet pointing up at what felt like 45 degrees! On joining the M5 slip-road I was horrified to see a Police motorbike with its rider looking around, apparently bored. We slid down in the seats so as not to be noticed (illogical I know) ... and it worked. If that Policeman is reading, my car was of course JUST within its legal load capacity. Funny though, despite being a quattro, on that 325 miles trip, front drive and steering seemed unusually light.

Your spares have since helped numerous Norfolk members to keep their Stags on the road, Dave, thanks. I will now go and browse my own collection of heads for Peter.

Well done to everyone on this thread. Future generations of Stag owners will bless 'nerds' such as us for the legacy we leave them.

[Registrar]

David
Your car was built 28th March (give or take a day). Is that DRP ? If not, please PM me.

I am afraid that I don't think that LF 10477 was the original engine for LD 1194x as this would have been in a car built in December 71. This could only be checked by making an enquiry of BMIHT (and that costs £40 so I don't think that it's not worth that much to find out) I don't have a record of any changed engine but I suspect that it may have been changed in the eighties and acquired a new set of Mk2 heads at the same time.

The last ESS engine I have noted is LF 3640 ESS so you have increased the number by a few. I actually bought a block in the mid eighties when the local dealer closed it's branch. I then sold it to a fellow member in Manchester and he has told me that it is LF 530 ESS. Some of the blocks must have been OK as the block is still in the car 30 years on.

The 88 block number is significant. I'll pop the information into the database. It may be that all blocks are numbered as such but I haven't been able to get LF17 out from it's hiding place and I can't get at the number for LF 2334 to check these early engines.

Thank you for sharing the AE information as I have wondered what that referred to having seen the initials on other parts. It also explains how the foundry can be determined from the heads. If anyone has heads without these initials on the lower central boss, please let me know. I have checked the Internet for details of AM&AE but have drawn a blank after 1986 when a substantial share of the holding company was bought by Turner & Newall. Do you have any more info ? This really helps me as I am trying to put together a picture of how Stag was built - who supplied what and where were the parts all put together.

Is it any wonder that Triumph had such a bad time with faulty engines ? I think that they owned Beans Foundries at the time but AE were subcontractors.

Peter

[DJT]

David
Your car was built 28th March (give or take a day). Is that DRP ? If not, please PM me.

I am afraid that I don't think that LF 10477 was the original engine for LD 1194x as this would have been in a car built in December 71. This could only be checked by making an enquiry of BMIHT (and that costs £40 so I don't think that it's not worth that much to find out) I don't have a record of any changed engine but I suspect that it may have been changed in the eighties and acquired a new set of Mk2 heads at the same time.

Peter,

You should have somewhere the relevant numbers for my first Stag, HYD700K. That was built Dec 71 and had numbers in the region of the ones above. The Heritage cert confirmed that they were the original matching numbers. That engine was still in the car when I sold it.

[Registrar]

I do indeed have your ex-details Dave. LD10567 /LF10599.

Peter

[davidf]

David
Your car was built 28th March (give or take a day). Is that DRP ? If not, please PM me.

I am afraid that I don't think that LF 10477 was the original engine for LD 1194x as this would have been in a car built in December 71. This could only be checked by making an enquiry of BMIHT (and that costs £40 so I don't think that it's not worth that much to find out) I don't have a record of any changed engine but I suspect that it may have been changed in the eighties and acquired a new set of Mk2 heads at the same time.

The last ESS engine I have noted is LF 3640 ESS so you have increased the number by a few. I actually bought a block in the mid eighties when the local dealer closed it's branch. I then sold it to a fellow member in Manchester and he has told me that it is LF 530 ESS. Some of the blocks must have been OK as the block is still in the car 30 years on.

The 88 block number is significant. I'll pop the information into the database. It may be that all blocks are numbered as such but I haven't been able to get LF17 out from it's hiding place and I can't get at the number for LF 2334 to check these early engines.

Thank you for sharing the AE information as I have wondered what that referred to having seen the initials on other parts. It also explains how the foundry can be determined from the heads. If anyone has heads without these initials on the lower central boss, please let me know. I have checked the Internet for details of AM&AE but have drawn a blank after 1986 when a substantial share of the holding company was bought by Turner & Newall. Do you have any more info ? This really helps me as I am trying to put together a picture of how Stag was built - who supplied what and wher. I was informed e were the parts all put together.

Is it any wonder that Triumph had such a bad time with faulty engines ? I think that they owned Beans Foundries at the time but AE were subcontractors.

Peter

While inspecting and rejecting short engines at Canley Unipart Major Assemblies depot in 1984 I was told that the blocks were cast at Beans Industries in Tipton. Triumph inspection were aware of core sand left in the waterways. I was informed - "if it was really bad we used to clean them". They had not been aware of the oil passages around the pump/filter also being affected; this was the reason I was rejecting the short engines.

More information about Beans Industries from wikipedia
Hadfields relaunched Bean in 1933 as Beans Industries to make castings for the motor industry. The company became profitable again and in 1937 Beans Industries became a public company. In World War Two the company made truck engines and parts. Standard-Triumph took over Bean in 1956 and became part of Leyland Motors in 1960. In the 1980s the Conservative Government broke up British Leyland and in 1988 Bean was bought by its management team. The team also bought Reliant, which failed in 1995 and forced Bean into receivership. A German company, Eisenwerk Bruhl, bought the Tipton factory and renamed it as Bruhl (UK). The owners sold it to the directors and it became Ferrotech, which was a major supplier to Ford and Perkins Engines. The order book almost doubled in twelve months but appalling mismanagement led to increasing and unsustainable losses, the company was put in administration and as the administrators could not sell it as a going concern the factory ceased production in August 2005 and closed within six months.

[Registrar]

Thanks David. I googled Beans Foundry and saw pictures of it being knocked down but didn't look for Beans Industries.

Peter