Ongoing gearbox and O/D issues

[Paul Kelley]

I have had my manual gearbox and overdrive unit (A type) rebuilt at not inconsiderable expense by a leading Stag specialist. Prior to the work it slipped out of 3rd gear on the over-run, some of the time. The overdrive unit worked fine and engaged and disengaged smoothly. On initial re-assembly the o/d wouldn’t work and so was rebuilt at additional cost.

On completion of the work and hand-over of the car, the gearbox still slipped out of 3rd, more than before, and the overdrive engagement was very jerky and fierce and almost certainly putting an excessive strain on the drivetrain. Naturally I requested this to be sorted and as I write the car is being worked on but I want to be as sure as possible that the diagnosis is correct and that the problem is remedied this time around. I have yet to receive a clear explanation but there is talk of a non-standard gearbox main shaft and bearing being the culprit.

Any thoughts as to the possible causes and remedies would be appreciated. Please don’t ask at this point for the specialist’s details as they are on the case and I would not wish to prejudice the final outcome.
PK

[LAMBRETTLAD]

Hi may I ask why if the overdrive was working well did you have it rebuilt?

Common causes of gear pop out are 1) worn bearings , allowing the shafts to move away from each other
2) linkage problems ,
could thesis be the cause?
good luck

cheers Alex

[flying farmer]

A type overdrives do tend to come in with a whack compared to the J types, the A type on my Estate certainly does and I think this is the reason the brake ring sometimes tears out of the annulus, I have had this on 2 A types but never on a J type.

The Stag gearbox on my TR used to jump out of 3rd gear. When I bought it the seller said it had been properly rebuilt, and to be fair after 22 years and 80 odd thousand miles it still works well.
Unfortunately when they rebuilt the top cover someone had mixed up the detent balls and plungers. Early boxes had screw in plugs to retain the plungers, later ones were pressed in (don't know the changeover point)
On the selector shafts the grooves the plungers/balls sit in are different widths to account for the different shaped ends of the plungers/balls.
Can't remember if it is two plungers and one ball or two balls and one plunger, but on my box the 3rd/4th selector rod had a narrow groove and something fat was trying to sit in it and as a result was not locating properly and popped out regularly on the overrun. Swapping over the appropriate bits solved the problem.
Of course it is possible this was the problem with your gearbox before it was rebuilt, and the top cover was not rebuilt. Or it was very carefully rebuilt with all the bits going back in the holes they originally came out of, but had been wrong from the factory, or at least a previous rebuild.
Neil

[Guest]

Prior to the work it slipped out of 3rd gear on the over-run, some of the time. The overdrive unit worked fine and engaged and disengaged smoothly. On initial re-assembly the o/d wouldn’t work and so was rebuilt at additional cost.

the gearbox still slipped out of 3rd, more than before, and the overdrive engagement was very jerky and fierce and almost certainly putting an excessive strain on the drivetrain.

Oh grief, sounds like a right mess.
It also sounds like whoever did the gearbox damaged the overdrive when they put it back on the gearbox,in other words you are being asked to pay for work they have screwed up.

gearbox jumping out of 3rd!! FFS, if it was a known problem before then it MUST BE FIXED!
Ie, change the offending gear and hub and replace it!!
ALL OF IT!

I have been building these for years, and NEVER had a gearbox fail ever, least of all NOT fix the known problem before handing it back!

This sounds like a right disaster, but I am used to seeing these slow moving train wrecks taking place in the UK trade, which is why I refuse to deal with them any more.

[Guest]

A type overdrives do tend to come in with a whack compared to the J types, the A type on my Estate certainly does had this on 2 A types but never on a J type.

NO they don't!
There are 2 types of accumulator on the A type OD, the early HUGE one, which is pretty strong when it engages, and the late type thing, which is quite gentle with much milder accumulator springing (It looks like an air rifle spring).
The BIG one was used on the TR5.

The J type CANNOT operate in the same way, but once upon a time was a guy called BRITTAIN at Laycock who made comp J types. Ernie Garbutt (RIP , OD spares) didn't like him (!)

I had one in race car, and it was SAVAGE,- JUST exactly what I wanted with oil pressure of 680psi.
A guy in Sutton Coldfield stole this unique prototype unit off me about 8 years ago in 2008,just after my daughter was born.

Vit_comp2_STOLEN.jpg

It goes to show just how dishonest & unscrupulous, the so called car enthusiasts really can be in the UK, especially if their big ego trip involves MONEY.

Obviously the speed of engagement of the J type depends on the propshaft speed, and the oil pump existed in a different version than std. (Mine had a straight shanked pump, not a tapered one which was done to prevent pump rattle).

As mine had a 4.55:1 LSD the propshaft speed at 8000rpm in 4th was yanked up to more like 10 000rpm once OD was engaged.
You just see what kind of OD engagement you get when the oil pump is running at 8000rpm....
I can assure at 680psi it will fairly punch you in the back!

It was just what I needed, cos sure as anything an engine making 100bhp/L at 7900rpm (2.3L -6) was really QUICK on a continental hillclimb.

*I am still pretty upset about people stealing this sort of one off gear off me.

[72BLUE]

A guy in Sutton Coldfield stole this unique prototype unit off me about 8 years ago........

*I am still pretty upset about people stealing this sort of one off gear off me.

If this is the guy why not get in touch and ask him if you can have it back?

Also here perhaps?

[Guest]

Cos thieves would never dream in their wildest imaginations that they could ever be held to account, (they always offload stolen stuff off quick, then join a whole load of car clubs to keep up appearances,) so that they could always viewed as "gentlemen", or "REAL ENTHUSIASTS", living in a bloody great mansion,with pots of money and have the biggest flat screen bloody telly in Birmingham.

The guy is an arch con-man.
A crook, who ripped off the entire family to the tune of 10 grand, knowingly and perfectly deliberately, literally 1 week after my wife came out of hospital after giving birth in 2008. (it's Alexandra's 9th birthday in April)

The Overdrive unit and gearbox in the photo was a ONE OFF I made myself back in 1988, so I know everything that went in it, all brand new parts.

knowingly handled & sold stolen goods, which is funny because a whole train of other Triumph "enthusiasts" were handling them...

Eg. this ONE OFF EXHAUST 5 grand exhaust (the big blue 6-1 one on the right) I designed and made in France in the 80s...

...mysteriously turned up in Melbourne AUSTRALIA after being resold by another Triumph con artist in Las Vegas USA.
Look at the OZZY CAR NUMBER on a GT6!

post-903-0-70629800-1411893218.jpg

Keep clapping Craig, such a lovely child in the photo....
48990cfeacfae6d6ecc88555c81cd37c.jpg


Nothing criminal is there selling and handling stolen goods is there?

Thought not, especially if you "LOVE TRIUMPHS" and even own a Stag.

post-903-0-66356300-1411893115.jpg

Sorry for the brief dive off topic,
I hate doing jobs twice for 3 simple reasons,-

1/ because I got it wrong (eg. didn't spot a defective part, and an engine blew up!)

2/ because someone else got it wrong (then claimed all kinds of excuses -ABOVE case)

3/ because some dishonest ******* stole the bits & went off with the parts, leaving me to sort it out at my cost.
(Eg. stole a customer's flowed head -S A, and a brand new crank for a customer in Luxembourg J-C, which I then had to replace from my own pocket)

The idea was to show RACE J type overdrives WERE MADE, and DO WORK, and nobody should be having to do the job twice, and be fobbed off with excuses.

[Paul Kelley]

Morning Guys
Thank you Alex and Neil for your feedback. Alex - overdrive rebuilt because it wasn't engaging after the gearbox re-build. I am of course left wondering if it was really necessary. I would have hoped that worn bearings would get picked up and changed, but you never know. Neil, as ever, very useful details and I'll certainly follow up with the points you make re the plungers. Watch this space!
PK

[Jeff]

I thought you couldn't 'name and shame' on here through fear of being sued or have I got it wrong

[Paul Kelley]

Jeff - that's why I haven't named the company dealing with my gearbox and o/d issue. Apart from anything else, they are currently doing 'the right thing' by trying to sort it and my request on here was intended to cover all possible bases. As usual, the forum has come up with some good suggestions, but I have not commented on one of the threads above as it seems to me to have gone into a different direction.
Paul aka PK

[stagmuffin]

names have been removed from various posts to avoid such actions as described re libel etc

PLEASE REMEMBER THIS FOLKS WHEN POSTING OR RISK DELETION AND APPROPRIATE ACTIONS .

[Jeff]

Jeff - that's why I haven't named the company dealing with my gearbox and o/d issue. Apart from anything else, they are currently doing 'the right thing' by trying to sort it and my request on here was intended to cover all possible bases. As usual, the forum has come up with some good suggestions, but I have not commented on one of the threads above as it seems to me to have gone into a different direction.
Paul aka PK

Hi PK,

it wasnt you my post was aimed at

[Paul Kelley]

Hi Jeff. Yep, thanks I realised but didn't make it clear enough, sorry! I see the Moderator has stepped in and edited the rant accordingly. To get back on track, I will post more information on this thread as things develop and in the spirit of sharing knowledge.
PK

[Jeff]

.

[Paul Kelley]

And so it continues. Finally got my car back from ‘the leading Stag specialist’ and was able to test-drive it. Great, third gear fine, overdrive better (still a bit sudden), upgraded CV drive-shafts and hubs fine, likewise front stub axles and hubs. Fifteen miles into test and I went to change from second to third gear and…not fine at all. Completely locked out of cross gate, so no third, fourth, or reverse. I managed to limp to my son’s house nearby in second before the temp gauge rose too high.

After a full and frank discussion with ‘the specialist owner’ we agreed to a reimbursement for the gearbox work, rather than transport the car over 100 miles for the third time. My local, but very experienced, mechanic has agreed to take it on and I await the diagnosis and, hopefully, the cure. Given that the Triumph (I think even Standard Vanguard) ‘box is considered straight-forward and pretty robust I have been surprised how much trouble it has caused.
Hey ho, specialists are only as good as their least experienced mechanic. Or perhaps the quality of the replacement parts used.
PK