‘Click nothing’ and associated starter motor problems !

[Tony Triumph]

Help needed from anyone who is experienced with Stag starter motor problems.
Background :- My late 1972 Mk 1 had to be taken off the road nearly 3 years ago with a blown head gasket. Prior to that, in 2010 an E.J.Ward ‘click nothing’ device was fitted which resolved the occasional ‘click nothing’ problems during that year.
In 2016 after over haul, the starter motor started the car up perfectly with only one hitch. One of the Stromberg carbs was flooding. This was resolved in February this year when I fitted a couple of modern day Grose ball valves. However in February, now with the carbs no longer flooding, on attempted restart up – the dreaded ‘click nothing’ reappeared– so, starter and solenoid thought to be the problem after extensive direct wire testing to the starter motor - still, as always ‘click nothing’
So, reconditioned starter motor acquired and tested on the work bench with a ‘click whirring’ throwing the spinning pinion forward, as you would expect. So, off with the old starter and on with the new! Result now ‘click whirring’ – no engagement between spinning pinion and slip ring on the flywheel.
I know there is an early Mk1 starter, which this is not and the new one looks the same as the one that came off. Could this still be the wrong starter motor, or is something else wrong? Help required please!
Many thanks.

[Kithmo]

Could it be missing teeth on the flywheel starter ring ?
With the ignition off, put the car in gear and push it forward or back a little and try it again.
Another thing to check is the engine earth connection, could be the starter is not turning fast enough to throw the solenoid fully out.

[marshman]

Could it be missing teeth on the flywheel starter ring ?
With the ignition off, put the car in gear and push it forward or back a little and try it again.
Another thing to check is the engine earth connection, could be the starter is not turning fast enough to throw the solenoid fully out.

The Stag starter is a "pre engaged" type where the solenoid throws the pinion out to engage with the flywheel ring gear before making electrical contact and spinning the starter, so I don't think it is anything to do with not turning fast enough that would apply only to the inertia type starters fitted to some other cars.

As you say it could be missing teeth. I think it more likely that the pinion is not engaging. So either the starter is not the correct one, or it is not mounted properly, (but it would have to sit back a long way not to engage at all so should be obvious), or it has the wrong solenoid mounted to it which is not throwing the pinion far enough forward. The solenoid must be travelling the full extent otherwise the motor would not spin.

Roger

[Tony Triumph]

Roger/Kithmo,
Many thanks for your responses Chaps. Teeth missing - no, because I have taken photos through the starter motor orifice and is showing all teeth present and correct. I have also rotated the engine to make sure it turns over. Regarding earth wires - have used 'jump' leads clamped directly on the starter motor housing and threaded brass screw feed. Have then used a separate red and white jump lead direct from the fully charged battery to the 'ign' terminal resulting in 'click whirring' of the motor(no grinding or grating noises at all, just the motor free spinning).
Regarding 'mounted properly' - is it actually possible to mount it incorrectly? The bolt holes both lined up and the bolts pulled it up tight without a hint of a fitting problem. Re solenoid throw - well I tested it on the work bench before fitting and the result was full travel of the pinion with a 'whack' as soon as the motor spun!
Just to come clean about this baffling problem, I tested the old starter on the bench and this worked perfectly .... as I expected it would, remembering this starter was giving me 'Click nothing' instead 'click whirring'.
A small mistake I made before fitting the replacement starter was not to note the Lucas ref part number. It is beginning to look as though I will have to take the replacement out and refit the original to see what result I get now.
Any more thoughts on this, please post another reply, Thanks

[Jeff]

Unfortunately several forum members who do not post on here anymore could have probably told you the problem in an instant or at least steered you in the right direction.

[marshman]

Roger/Kithmo,
Many thanks for your responses Chaps. Teeth missing - no, because I have taken photos through the starter motor orifice and is showing all teeth present and correct. I have also rotated the engine to make sure it turns over. Regarding earth wires - have used 'jump' leads clamped directly on the starter motor housing and threaded brass screw feed. Have then used a separate red and white jump lead direct from the fully charged battery to the 'ign' terminal resulting in 'click whirring' of the motor(no grinding or grating noises at all, just the motor free spinning).
Regarding 'mounted properly' - is it actually possible to mount it incorrectly? The bolt holes both lined up and the bolts pulled it up tight without a hint of a fitting problem. Re solenoid throw - well I tested it on the work bench before fitting and the result was full travel of the pinion with a 'whack' as soon as the motor spun!
Just to come clean about this baffling problem, I tested the old starter on the bench and this worked perfectly .... as I expected it would, remembering this starter was giving me 'Click nothing' instead 'click whirring'.
A small mistake I made before fitting the replacement starter was not to note the Lucas ref part number. It is beginning to look as though I will have to take the replacement out and refit the original to see what result I get now.
Any more thoughts on this, please post another reply, Thanks

From what you describe it seems like it is the wrong starter. As I said the motor will not start to spin until the pinion has reached the end of its travel which should mean it will be engaged with the ring gear on the fly wheel.

When you have removed it just compare the length of the nose from the mounting face to the end on both motors, I suspect the new one is shorter. I'm not sure but another possibility is that it is possible to adjust the throw of the pinion, so check it throws at as far as the old one.

Roger

[marshman]

Unfortunately several forum members who do not post on here anymore could have probably told you the problem in an instant or at least steered you in the right direction.

I am sure they could have Jeff, but life goes on and the world still turns without them - and hopefully Tony's engine will do soon as well.

[Jeff]

. It's nice that members like you are only too glad to help Roger as you have done with me in the past, just a shame that's all. I am not affected because I am in touch with those I mentioned. Viva la forum.

[Lingen]

Tony.
It does sound as though you have got an incorrect replacement motor there. As the old one worked well when you bench tested it, (as they nearly always do!), I would give it another try back on the car. Very often this fault is caused by a poor electrical supply to the solenoid, and you can check this by powering the larger Lucar terminal on the solenoid direct from the battery, with a decent cable. If you find it the starter then works every time, I suspect the fault may be in the multi-pin wiring loom connector next to the fuel pipe where it comes up into the engine bay below the fuse box. This is where the wiring loom to the gearbox is connected, and the supply to the solenoid is in there as well, to go via the cut-out switch on an auto box. On a manual, the supply is looped straight back through the plug. This plug can get really dirty, and the pins make a poor high resistance connection. Clean them all up, and the solenoid problem might go away.
Mike.

[richard1705]

tony I had a very similar thing last week but mine was click nothing changed starter etc etc turned out to be the wire from ignition to starter was of. need to follow it back
richard

[Tony Triumph]

Jeff - I know what your talking about.
Roger - Thanks for more thoughts. I am beginning to agree that this must have been the wrong starter motor, or the right motor, but with a pinion throw set up that is totally incompatible with my set up. As I write this, I feel the possibilities we are being left with are being stretched to the limits. The next problem I am fearing before it happens, is that I will put the original starter motor back in and I will be back to the original problem I started out with .... 'click nothing'! At lest I will have been able to look at the stamped Lucas part number on the replacement motor. I did wonder if the original motor just stopped or got stuck on a flat spot on the motor commutator - ok, ok Chaps, now tell me Lucas starter motors don't have flat spots!
Mike - before I took the original starter off, I was testing it using jump leads direct to the starter motor including an independent red and white wire direct from the battery to the Lucar terminal, thereby by passing ALL the Stag's own wiring. However, I am questioning how thorough I was with my own testing as, at that time, I was convinced the problem was the starter motor which I now sense it wasn't.
Richard - One or two mechanics have told me they have changed the starter motor first, before finding out the problem was actually caused by wiring defects of some sort!
Anyway, I will take the replacement starter out on Friday and just maybe put the old one back on and report back!
Thanks all.

[marshman]

Tony,

I suspect your origianal diagnosis was correct. The solenoid was at fault. What happens is that over the years of switching the heavy current to the motor the copper "pads" at the end of the solenoid that do the switching get burnt and pitted - effectively worn. The more pitted and burnt they get the more often you get the click - nothing effect. The click is the solenoid throwing forwards, the "nothing." is the switch/contacts at the end of the solenoid not working because they are burnt and pitted. After several attempts of "mashing" the copper together electrical contact is made and the motor bursts into life. The repeated attempts to start clean up the copper a little bit.

The various "fixes" of cleaning the connectors, replacing the ignition switch, bypassing the wiring with a relay all help to give the solenoid a bit of extra "thwack" to mash the copper together, but all they are doing is delaying the inevitable day when the copper pads/contacts have become so burnt, pitted and worn that they never make electrical contact. At that stage the solenoid needs to be either replaced or repaired by cleaning up and packing out the copper pads. Staggard did a very good post on exactly this a few years back.

The issue you have now is different. The solenoid is clearly reaching the end of its travel and switching power on to the motor. So the most problem seems to be either some adjustment or fault with the pinion engagement or it is the wrong starter motor.

It will be interesting to find the true cause.

Roger

Just found staggards post - worth a read:

http://socforum.com/forum/showthread.php?29535-The-real-culprit-for-the-Stag-click&highlight=staggard+starter+solenoid

[Tony Triumph]

Roger,
Many thanks for the link to staggards post. Very interesting pictures indeed!
Things are still ticking over in my mind, before I remove the replacement starter motor on Friday as to the effectiveness of the tests I already carried out on the original one. If you have the official Stag Repair Operation manual, turn to sheet 2 page 86.60.00. Surely, if I was putting the power direct on to the 'STA' terminal (6) using a jump lead direct from the battery, assuming the motor is earthed, shouldn't the motor spin regardless of whether the copper contact plate is broken or the plunger is or is not working?

[andyt]

Tony
I had the what sounds like the same problem last year. The solenoid contacts in my starter motor had a high resistance causing a volt drop across them. You can take the solenoid apart and clean the contacts if you want or buy a new solenoid.
I bought a new starter motor as the cost wasn't much more than just a solenoid, fitted it and like yours it would spin but not engage. Took it off and noticed the profile of the pinion on the new one was different to the old one, I couldn't see any other differences. I ended up fitting the new solenoid to the old starter and all has been good since, could have swapped the pinions over but changing the solenoid was quicker at the time.
Hope this helps.
Andy

[marshman]

In short yes. Putting a jump lead on that terminal will cause the motor to spin - provided it is earthed via the body. Of course the pinion will not engage the flywheel so the engine will not turn over.

Reading the ROM reminded me that it is possible for the pinion to jam on the shaft and not engage. The solenoid will still reach the end of its travel as there are springs on the plunger to allow for the situation where the pinion teeth hit the ring gear teeth and don't engage. So it is possible it is the right motor but something - don't know what - is preventing the pinion travelling all the way forwards.

Roger