Rear hub adjustment

[dasadrew]

On using the correct tool for the rear hubs Gareth, is it ok to use the original Churchill tools if you have them or would you still recommend a custom made solution?

Drew

[Goldstar]

I’m no expert like you Gareth but is pre loading different to setting with end float? I thought our hubs were set up with end float - at least that’s what the ROM implies. Is that wrong as well?

[milothedog]

The bearings in these hubs are preloaded, and set with a collapsible spacer, very much like they are in the Jaguar outer axle bearings.



There's a knack to doing them, and you HAVE to have the right way of taking the flange off the shaft.
They are set up in an extremely similar fashion to the GT6 Mk2/Vitesse Mk2 rear hub system, except those use shims instead of collapsible spacers.



In fact the rear OUTER bearing on the GT6 is the SAME ONE as the one used on the Stag,
(see GHB265)
This is TIMKEN 29749/29710, and needs to use a high quality grease, while the inner bearing on the GT6 is very similar to a Jaguar XJ6 FRONT inner wheel bearing (or Spitfire/later GT6 carrier bearing 67048/67010).



That says a lot about the relative strength of the GT6 hub system/wheel bearing system compared with the Stag/TR6, and how ancient the Stag design was - going back to the 1963 Triumph 2000 with it's skinny wheels and narrow track!

The TR6 uses front wheel bearings from a Triumph Herald, which gives it stub axles that flex!!!
The Stag rear inner hub bearing is the same size & type as the front GT6 stub axle.
44649/44610

Again, if the bearing is not preloaded correctly with those (GT6 rear), the inner bearing will end up spinning on the inner axle shaft and destroying it, although the inner axle shaft at least won't shear.
Setting the preload is done in almost exactly the same way as the pinion or carrier bearings in a differential.

(We used a 20T press in Germany and a pipe which has had the end carefully milled to exactly the shape of the rear of the flange for the hubs. This is really the only way to do it properly on TR/Stag, and you never distort the flanges).

I rebuilt loads of them, and YES they MUST have Timken bearings, but of course the vast majority of people don't do that, preferring cheapy NTN or other stuff..
They were never any good for front wheel bearings, but here we go again, most of the trade resellers don't give a sh...t.

Of all the rear hubs I rebuilt in Germany I never had one fail, and it's not a place noted for its low speeds.
I have to say, the keeway is the place where the shaft will start to fail, and this is undersized for the amount of torque it has to pass.
It has a sharp edge at the bottom of the groove.
Once it has any misalignment will spread from the root of the groove into the core of the shaft and snap it off.

Fact is, the shaft/hub assy must NEVER have free play, they must always be preloaded.
If they do, it's the sure path to failure,because the inner axle shaft will be forced into a running out of true under load.

I think at least 85% of all the cars I ever checked or looked at, had free play on the rear hubs, that means the hub is basically trying to twist itself off the shaft, and the more tyre grip you have, the less tolerance you will get.

It's quite amazing, and crazy at the same time, but now I get tired of the whole story, and even had one expat last week tell grandmother to suck eggs...



I'm convinced the SPAX dampers on TR6 (which are the wrong length) + regular suspension bottoming on the bump stops, & the fact they are run with zero preload for years at a time causes 99% of the failures.
Once the inner bearing has spun on the shaft you have to bin it.

Of course part of the problem is, the trade are quite happy to reuse a shaft which should have gone in the bin, with predictable results.

They are also quite happy to build axles with shot carriers where the bearings have spun, repro crown and pinions where the tooth pattern wanders all over the show, and cheapy NTN or chinese no name bearings with the wrong tolerances and datum heights....

You accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about (Your wrong BTW) Then go on to post the wrong information yourself. Stag Hub's are set up with End Float and are NOT pre loaded..........

People in glass houses and all that

[redstag]

Easy...no DON'T get a recon unit.

If you are lucky enough to have the original hubs fitted (and probably bearings) why would you want to replace with recon units that's had a 20 ton press applied to them to part and put new bearings on which will often cause THIS to happen.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42930[/ATTACH]

I believe that's Daves (DJT) hub and was one of a pair of recon units, I understand the other unit failed within 18 months also. Thanks for the photos Dave.

It's happened to numerous Triumph owners with some inversions, the IRS TRs use them as well and are often driven more...errr....enthusiastically which brings the hub failings to the fore. Don't mess, take the opportunity to replace with new units.

Micky

That's the hub from my car. The other side had already failed soon after fitting and resulted in the wheel falling off.
Both recon hubs bought from a generally well respected supplier.

Pete

[Guest]

Good luck to find the original Churchill stuff.
Most of it must be 50yrs old.
It's precisely because it's impossible to find, we went to doing that solution.

(Btw Facom also do some quite smart pullers, which enabled me to get the hubs off the rear axle of Jaguar Mk2 last year, - but STAND WELL CLEAR OF THE BEAST!)

Funnily enough my German friend does exactly the same thing as we did in Landau, to remove the 5th gear from the Getrag box.
A CNC machined plate that exactly mirrors the shape of the 5th gear, then a mobile type hydraulic "claw" ram puller that slots in the back of the gearbox.
Even Getrag couldn't do that trick, and I watch in astonishment as it dismantles a gearbox with no effort at all.

[Guest]

Stag Hub's are set up with End Float and are NOT pre loaded..........

They sure are NOT!

When was the last time you didn't preload a bearing when it has a collapsible spacer??
IDEM, Jaguar ones!

You must be crazy, that's the whole point of the spacer!

Do you actually build axles for a living or is that a comment designed to wind people up who do?

Btw...here's some info to give you some ideas.

XKE (E type shafts HAVE NO END FLOAT, they are preloaded, as the brake disks are inboard mounted on preloaded TIMKEN bearings).

XJ6 (XJ40/late XJS HAVE end float, because they have ball races on the inner end and the brake disk on the outside, which is why they have larger better bearings to compensate).

TR3/4 NON IRS HAVE END FLOAT on the axle shafts across the internal thrust button...about 3-4 thou, set by large flat shims.

TR4AIRS/TR5/TR6/T2000/2500/STAG MUST NOT HAVE HUB END FLOAT, they are preloaded.

ALL TRIUMPH FRONT WHEEL BEARINGS
MUST NOT BE PRELOADED !NEVER NEVER! ,reason,- because the heat of the brake disk changes the clearances when hot.

[redstag]

Good luck to find the original Churchill stuff.
Most of it must be 50yrs old.
It's precisely because it's impossible to find, we went to doing that solution.

They do come up on ebay occasionally, one just sold for £345!

Pete

[milothedog]

They sure are NOT!

When was the last time you didn't preload a bearing when it has a collapsible spacer??
IDEM, Jaguar ones!

You must be crazy, that's the whole point of the spacer!

Do you actually build axles for a living or is that a comment designed to wind people up who do?

Have a look in the Triumph workshop repair manual, I suppose you will say its wrong ? The collapsible spacer is to lock the inner tracks of the inner and outer bearing together to prevent them spinning and running live on the stub axle. Same as the spacer and shim mod that is available for the front wheel bearings.


Regards winding people up, have you ever given any thought to how rude and condescending your post are. It must be a hard life knowing everything about everything.

Have a nice day




Something for you to read


IMG_2391.jpg

[tractorjames]

Have a look in the Triumph workshop repair manual, I suppose you will say its wrong ? The collapsible spacer is to lock the inner tracks of the inner and outer bearing together to prevent them spinning and running live on the stub axle. Same as the spacer and shim mod that is available for the front wheel bearings.


Regards winding people up, have you ever given any thought to how rude and condescending your post are. It must be a hard life knowing everything about everything.

Have a nice day

Correct, did mine not long ago in accordance to the manual setting the bearings with the required end float.

No problems since.

James

[redstag]

This is what the rom says:

rear hub.PNG

[milothedog]

This is what the rom says:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42941[/ATTACH]

Snap

[milothedog]

They sure are NOT!

When was the last time you didn't preload a bearing when it has a collapsible spacer??
IDEM, Jaguar ones!

You must be crazy, that's the whole point of the spacer!

Do you actually build axles for a living or is that a comment designed to wind people up who do?

Btw...here's some info to give you some ideas.

XKE (E type shafts HAVE NO END FLOAT, they are preloaded, as the brake disks are inboard mounted on preloaded TIMKEN bearings).

XJ6 (XJ40/late XJS HAVE end float, because they have ball races on the inner end and the brake disk on the outside, which is why they have larger better bearings to compensate).

TR3/4 NON IRS HAVE END FLOAT on the axle shafts across the internal thrust button...about 3-4 thou, set by large flat shims.

TR4AIRS/TR5/TR6/T2000/2500/STAG MUST NOT HAVE HUB END FLOAT, they are preloaded

.

ALL TRIUMPH FRONT WHEEL BEARINGS
MUST NOT BE PRELOADED !NEVER NEVER! ,reason,- because the heat of the brake disk changes the clearances when hot.

Wrong 2-5 thou endfloat on a Stag

[Guest]

Yes the manual IS wrong.
I remember Les Noviss doing this stuff for us (Back in Oxfordshire) when BL dealers that knew what they were doing actually existed.
The Mk2 Vitesse has a small preload 0.002-0.003, and the Triumph 2000 ones have to done to roughly the same spec, which is exactly what he did for us.

If you check out the RED original workshop manual from the late 1960s for the GT6Mk2 and Vitesse Mk2 you will find there is a special tool to enable you to select out the shims neccessary to set up the PRELOAD.
(which is far from easy cos the originals use LEATHER seals, and the current ones use rubber ones).
The Stag uses identical outer wheel bearings to the GT6, but a smaller inner wheel bearing, as I showed you.
This is why it MUST be set up with preload, same as the Jaguar E type in fact.

The collapsible spacer is to lock the inner tracks of the inner and outer bearing together to prevent them spinning and running live on the stub axle. Same as the spacer and shim mod that is available for the front wheel bearings.

AND:-
YES the mod for the (FRONT) wheel bearings is a complete bodge up, because they can't get the dimensions right for repro stub axles, AND most people are NOT using Timken bearings which simply DO NOT budge, when set up with correct float. THE CHEAPO ones DO!

The collapsible spacer does not and cannot prevent movement of the bearing races.
The whole idea of a collapsible spacer is to be able to set up preloads ultra fast on a production line scenario, but of course 50% emerged from Prod in Canley WAY too tight because the numpties on prod got too enthusiastic with the power tools....

HENCE the enormous reject rates on axles for the Spitfire 1500, Dolomite,TR7 4 speed and the late TR6 which use exactly the same sh...t collapsible spacer.

Some of the axles wouldn't even last 1000kms before tearing the pinion bearings into ferocious noise, I actually bought new ones from Greenwich autos back in the 80s before Fitchett bought them out.... One of them lasted 400 miles before getting noisy!

Been there done that....

Have you ever handled any NOS stuff?
On one occasion I had to rebuild 80-90 brand new axles.
Tell me why?

Manualitis is a curable disease.

[milothedog]

Yes the manual IS wrong.
I remember Les Noviss doing this stuff for us (Back in Oxfordshire) when BL dealers that knew what they were doing actually existed.
The Mk2 Vitesse has a small preload 0.002-0.003, and the Triumph 2000 ones have to done to roughly the same spec, which is exactly what he did for us.

If you check out the RED original workshop manual from the late 1960s for the GT6Mk2 and Vitesse Mk2 you will find there is a special tool to enable you to select out the shims neccessary to set up the PRELOAD.

The Stag uses identical outer wheel bearings to the GT6, and a smaller inner wheel bearing.
This is why it MUST be set up with preload, same as the Jaguar E type in fact.



Yes the mod for the (FRONT) wheel bearings is a complete bodge up, because they can't get the dimensions right for repro stub axles, AND most people are NOT using Timken bearings which simply DO NOT budge, when set up with correct float. THE CHEAPO ones DO!

The collapsible spacer does not and cannot prevent movement of the bearing races

.
The whole idea of a collapsible spacer is to be able to set up preloads ultra fast on a production line scenario, but of course 50% emerged from Prod in Canley WAY too tight because the numpties on prod got too enthusiastic with the power tools....

HENCE the enormous reject rates on axles for the Spitfire 1500, Dolomite,TR7 4 speed and the late TR6 which use exactly the same sh...t collapsible spacer.

Some of the axles wouldn't even last 1000kms before tearing the pinion bearings into ferocious noise, I actually bought new ones from Greenwich autos back in the 80s before Fitchett bought them out.... One of them lasted 400 miles before getting noisy!

Been there done that....

Have you ever handled any NOS stuff?
On one occasion I had to rebuild 80-90 brand new axles.
Tell me why?

Manualitis is a curable disease.

Wrong, I spent over 35 years servicing / repairing heavy vehicles and that set up was very common either being collapsable or shims to lock the bearings once the end float had been achieved

[Guest]

that set up was very common either being collapsable or shims to lock the bearings once the end float had been achieved

So according to you, the collapsible spacer does nothing particularly useful on the differential pinion apart to prevent the bearings from turning on the pinion?
Sadly this is not the case, because one of the most regular fails on the E type axle is exactly that.
The pinion bearing turns on the shaft underneath the flange, chews up the oil flinger and the preload goes to pot.

Are you telling me the settings as shown for eg. the rear axle are actually right??
Have you ever built one?

Btw did you learn about doing Triumph transmission work in Coventry from any of the guys who worked on the production line? There were quite a lot of them still about in the 1980s.

eg. My Bro actually walked around the production line,- (invited) while it was still running, as he was one of the earliest member of the TSSC.The Stags were still sitting there on the line, unfinished, with the line DEAD.
John Cudmore was the guy who organised it.

Another friend of mine built all the transmissions internally.
I remember him telling me how they smashed all the Stag heads to pieces with a sledge hammer and buried them in a pit, so that they wouldn't be sold on the market to compete with their own overpriced spare parts program....lots of other stuff.

There are some people who actually have contacts with OEM, and we actually DO chat about all sorts of issues, including exactly this type of thing.
They are all steadily dying off.

What's written in the manual and what actually happens in prod are totally different things inc on the spare parts end.
Often the manuals are plain wrong (Jaguar being a prime offender).