sludge the real Achilles’ heel in the Stag?

[Stag Beetle]

Is the sludge and junk that blocks the waterways the real Achilles’ heel in the Stag?

My engine was restored by E.J. Ward ten years ago and over the last ten years has done only 10k.
After removing my heads over the last two weeks it has become apparent that my head gasket failure is due to the waterways being completely blocked with crap. This has warped the head in this area and caused the gasket to fail, allowing coolant into the cylinder.

After repairing some central heating systems it’s the same sludge and limescale crap that blocks the pipes and radiators in central heating boilers.

The car over the last ten years has been pampered and regularly serviced and reversed flushed. When it came into my ownership last year I serviced it and had water system reversed flushed under pressure but looking back this wasn’t enough. I need to find something that will clean and descale the waterways without damaging the mixture of metals and rubbers and seals.
Is this it?



(Removes rust and sludge Clears blocked water channels which cause overheating Safe for use with rubber hoses and all metals including aluminium when used as recommended.)

Anyone used it or similar?
Looking ahead if there is something on the market that works, this has got to be added into the service schedule for all Stags as it apears reverse flushing is not enough.



Andrew

[grahamb]

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Hi Andrew,

do you use distilled water in cooling system? In 6 years, I have been ok with sludge using it.

My new domestic heating system sludged up despite using fernox originally because I topped up loads of times due to lots of plumbing changes and moving radiators etc.

[stagmuffin]

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hi adrian, have a look at a post i made some time back. ; WAS HOT NOW CHILLED;

had similar problems to you over the years and now employ this method reffilling with comercial inhibitor and glycol also i use water saved from my dehumidifier as is as close to distilled as you can get so therefore inert non conductive.reverse flushing in my opinion is only marginal at best using the power flush pump at hand hot temp with a decaling and sludge removing solution works excellent and instead of just pushing water with a bit of pressure you actualy get high velocity impact and reversal of pump flow direction every couple of mins eventualy breaks down the hardcore muck into solution which the pump is able to push out of the system and replace with fresh clean at same time.mine shows no symptoms never gets hot only rarely gets above 90 deg if i gun it hard and water flow is excellent used infra red therm to detect hot spots is none so im very happy..................cheers steve........

[V Mad]

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I think you have to ask yourself the question, if there is sludge build up, then what is the sludge and where does it come from.

I can only conclude that the sludge must be a corrosion product, and therefore this means the coolant additive (antifreeze) is not working.

Many people run their stags for years without cooling problems, and I think that all they are doing (correct me if I am wrong) is a complete change of coolant with fresh additive. One important point though is that unless the block is also fully drained, quite a lot of old coolant is left behind, and there may not be enough capacity to get the right quantity of additive to ensure corrosion protection.

Just one other point, I wonder if most owners are aware that the traditional 'green' antifreeze only lasts one year, and the 'blue' antifreeze is usually spec'd at 2 years?

[stagmuffin]

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hi vmad, a lot of the muck in systems is actualy caused by electrolysis this puts deposits in suspension which are then pushed around the system and trapped at various points causing grief.another big problem is that of dissolved oxygen levels present in new water.as you are probably aware this manifests itself as ferrous oxide aluminium oxide etc that combined with electrolysis gives off hydrogen gas.there are other more obvious things like the mineral content of the water. i believe the use of dionised water a good corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze will go a long way to protect the system provided it has been thoroughly cleaned and descaled to start with and is only topped up with prepared solution at the right concentration....................steve............ ............

[V Mad]

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stagmuffin wrote:

hi vmad, a lot of the muck in systems is actualy caused by electrolysis this puts deposits in suspension which are then pushed around the system and trapped at various points causing grief.another big problem is that of dissolved oxygen levels present in new water.as you are probably aware this manifests itself as ferrous oxide aluminium oxide etc that combined with electrolysis gives off hydrogen gas.there are other more obvious things like the mineral content of the water. i believe the use of dionised water a good corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze will go a long way to protect the system provided it has been thoroughly cleaned and descaled to start with and is only topped up with prepared solution at the right concentration....................steve............ ............

Yes Steve, I know the corrosion is electrolytic, but the chemical additives in the antifreeze are designed to combat this corrosion, so provided you start with a clean system you should be OK if you keep the correct additive levels in there. As for minerals in hard water, I havent seen any practial evidence that this is a significant problem, and I would think the use of an occasional flushing compound as a precaution would probably keep it clear anyway.

I wonder if anyone has info on an analysis of the silt to see what is the typical make up?

[Stag Beetle]

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grahamb wrote:

Hi Andrew,

do you use distilled water in cooling system? In 6 years, I have been ok with sludge using it.

My new domestic heating system sludged up despite using fernox originally because I topped up loads of times due to lots of plumbing changes and moving radiators etc.

To be honest no I don’t use distilled water, but I will from now on I have been emptying my dehumidifier and throwing away 2 litres of distilled water daily now I have a use for it!

[stagmuffin]

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V Mad wrote:

stagmuffin wrote:

hi vmad, a lot of the muck in systems is actualy caused by electrolysis this puts deposits in suspension which are then pushed around the system and trapped at various points causing grief.another big problem is that of dissolved oxygen levels present in new water.as you are probably aware this manifests itself as ferrous oxide aluminium oxide etc that combined with electrolysis gives off hydrogen gas.there are other more obvious things like the mineral content of the water. i believe the use of dionised water a good corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze will go a long way to protect the system provided it has been thoroughly cleaned and descaled to start with and is only topped up with prepared solution at the right concentration....................steve............ ............

Yes Steve, I know the corrosion is electrolytic, but the chemical additives in the antifreeze are designed to combat this corrosion, so provided you start with a clean system you should be OK if you keep the correct additive levels in there. As for minerals in hard water, I havent seen any practial evidence that this is a significant problem, and I would think the use of an occasional flushing compound as a precaution would probably keep it clear anyway.

I wonder if anyone has info on an analysis of the silt to see what is the typical make up?

part of the point i was trying to get accross is that tap water is conductive so no amount of inhibitor will change that but deionised water with an inhibitor and antifreeze will discourage electical reaction as a result chemical reaction will be marginal thus less deposits equals less silt sludge..

ps. with regards to the minerals at and above 60deg c these are released from suspension in the coolant and will then adhere usualy always where the flow is already restricted with a potential for overheating problems.

dont want to protract this just trying to pass on the benefit of 30 years of hydrodynamics of which im now tired................steve.

[BJackson]

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Hi Andrew,

I must agree with Steve on this, I use Millers Extra Cool additive but because of my job i am able to get hold of Revers Osmosis water that is used on renal units, this normally has a conductivity of less than 3uS( for the engineers out there u is the closest i could get to micro ). And when i flush out the water is as clear as the day it was put in, so if you can use distilled water i would help a lot.

Cheers

Bruce

[Bazstag]

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Well i'm hoping my water changes should be beneficial as i've been using RO water which i use for my marine tanks, i have a unit built in the shed which shows the water containing 520 ppm before the filters and 0-3 ppm after. The only downside to this method is for every gallon i make i lose 3 but itgoes on her garden so its not going to waste

Baz

[Stag Beetle]

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BJackson wrote:

Hi Andrew,

I must agree with Steve on this, I use Millers Extra Cool additive but because of my job i am able to get hold of Revers Osmosis water that is used on renal units, this normally has a conductivity of less than 3uS( for the engineers out there u is the closest i could get to micro ). And when i flush out the water is as clear as the day it was put in, so if you can use distilled water i would help a lot.

Cheers

Bruce

Thanks for the info Bruce I am going to order some of the Millers additive. How much do you use when filling from scratch, just trying work out how many bottles to order?
Andrew

[comeinhandy]

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I notice that recent cars specify the red/OAP antifreeze whcih has the organic acid corrosion inhibitors. I was never quiet sure of the pros and cons of the various red/blue/green antifreezes, but just found this info which some may find useful. Do people still find sludge forming with the red/OAP stuff or is it just the old blue & green stuff? :

"



Long Life Antifreeze

[comeinhandy]

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Try again, here is the hopefully clearer info (pasted fromthe web):

Most antifreeze coolant sold in recent years has been the traditional green coolant which has a life span of two to three years or up to 30,000 miles. Green antifreeze contains silicates, phosphates and borates as corrosion inhibitors to keep the solution alkaline. As long as the solution remains alkaline, corrosion is controlled and the cooling system is protected. Over time corrosion inhibitors are depleted and the corrosion protection is lost, therefore green antifreeze should be changed every two years.

Aluminium is especially vulnerable to corrosion and many vehicles have heads, radiators and other aluminium components in the cooling system. If the coolant in an engine cooling system is changed before corrosion inhibitors reach dangerously low levels, corrosion damage is prevented.

Long Life Antifreeze

An alternative to tradition green antifreeze is a product currently used by many vehicle manufacturers. Orange or Red antifreeze known as long life or extended life antifreeze increases the useful life of engine coolant. Long life antifreeze is also ethylene glycol based.

The difference between the two colours is that Orange / Red antifreeze contains a different type of corrosion inhibitor that has a much longer life than silicates, phosphates and borates. Orange / Red antifreeze contains organic acids that protect engine parts from corrosion.

Green antifreeze does not mix with long life antifreeze. Never mix the two colours in a cooling system. The organic acids in orange types will cause precipitation of silicates in the green type and corrosion protection is greatly reduced.

Orange type antifreezes are suitable for up to five years or 100,000 miles. They can also be used in many older vehicles if all of the green antifreeze is flushed from the system and is replaced with the orange / red antifreeze. The lifespan of long life antifreeze is about four years or 60,000 miles in older cars.

[BJackson]

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Stag Beetle wrote:

BJackson wrote:

Hi Andrew,

I must agree with Steve on this, I use Millers Extra Cool additive but because of my job i am able to get hold of Revers Osmosis water that is used on renal units, this normally has a conductivity of less than 3uS( for the engineers out there u is the closest i could get to micro ). And when i flush out the water is as clear as the day it was put in, so if you can use distilled water i would help a lot.

Cheers

Bruce

Thanks for the info Bruce I am going to order some of the Millers additive. How much do you use when filling from scratch, just trying work out how many bottles to order?
Andrew

Millers recommend a 2% solution, the Stag takes 18.5 pints there or there abouts which is about 10.5 litres, so you should only need 210ml if my maths is correct ?:?So one should do it

Cheers

Bruce

[Guest]

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Stag Beetle wrote:

grahamb wrote:

Hi Andrew,

do you use distilled water in cooling system? In 6 years, I have been ok with sludge using it.

My new domestic heating system sludged up despite using fernox originally because I topped up loads of times due to lots of plumbing changes and moving radiators etc.

To be honest no I don’t use distilled water, but I will from now on I have been emptying my dehumidifier and throwing away 2 litres of distilled water daily now I have a use for it!

Hiya guys, this is getting unfathomably complex, the Stag engine is not a life saving device, nor do you need a degree to maintain it, my engine was rebuilt by Wards in '03 and has since done 42.000 miles. Everythree years or soit gets a chemical flush as a precaution, with the block properly drained, then it gets 50% blueanti-freeze and 50% distilled water, every 12 monthsit getsdrained and refilled. If you use the new anti-freeze types you will need to flush and replace every bit of rubber in the whole system !New hoses when the old ones look poorly and a new stat every two years, they're only 4p so not an issue, if you do this, and the old girl still runs hot, change the rad for a new one, not a good second hand one off ebay - it's not rocket science Martin.