Which engine oil do you use ?

[marshman]

And for those that don't believe what Micky has said above here is a link to the EUROPEAN (not American) Valvoline website and Product information sheet for VR1, note there is no, zero, zilch, mention of zinc, phosphorous or zddp anywhere - and there hasn't been for several years for the product sold in Europe and the UK.

https://www.valvolineeurope.com/english/products/engine_oils/vr1_racing/cid(7558)/vr1_racing_20w-50

If you can get some direct from the USA then you should be ok as they are now stating the levels again:

https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/18bdee61-0a7e-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1

Roger

[Mark Serj]

Bugger ...ahh well the VR1 will be going in the Guzzi now then!

[Goldstar]

Check it first Mark. If it is marked SL or an earlier standard it should be fine. You can see the SL on the Classic, that’s the important info to check as well as any data sheet for confirmation

[Motorsport Micky]

Check it first Mark. If it is marked SL or an earlier standard it should be fine. You can see the SL on the Classic, that’s the important info to check as well as any data sheet for confirmation

And the VR1 data sheet says :-

VR1™ Racing Motor Oil SAE 20W-50
Premium quality conventional motor oil. Formulated for ultimate performance in turbo and non-turbo charged petrol engines under extreme operating conditions such as road racing and rallying.
Applications
For ultimate performance in turbo and non-turbocharged petrol engines of passenger cars and race cars.
Offers extra reserve needed to resist extreme operating conditions during rallying and racing.
Suitable for normal day to day driving in the city and on the highway.
Suitable for some Harley Davidson* motorcycle models.
* Check your owner’s manual before use.
Features & Benefits
Performance levels ACEA A3/B4 API: SL Ford WSS-M2C-153E GM 6094M


The clue is in the application, "passenger cars" ..."driving in the city" etc and not a mention of any Zinc or ZDDP inclusion. That means either there isn't any or it's been reduced to such an extent that it won't poison the catalytic convertors on road cars. That's ok as long as you are aware of it and you feel that the conversations on this thread and others about the efficacy and benefits of ZDDP are overstated, as in the post above if you have a modern car or other non large flat tappet engine the SL certification approves use in such.
The Classic Oil certification carries both the SL rating and Zinc inclusion of 1300ppm of ZDDP covering both camps.

Micky

[dasadrew]

don't really want to get into this subject, but in November 2018 this list was published on a German Muscle Car site: (no responsibility for accuracy taken!) Hier mal eine Tabelle wo diese Werte aufgelistet sind:

Hersteller	Viskosität	API	Zink in ppm
Castrol Classic XL (UK)	20W50	SE/CC	800
Erwinol Classic Line	20W50	SF	1100
Motorex Evotec SAE		SF/CD	1200
Motul Classic	20W50	SF	1460
Pennasol Multigrade Super HD	20W50	SF	900
Pentosin Pentolub	20W50	SF	1200
Ravenol Formel Extra	20W50	SF	1000
TIP (von Real)	20W50	SF	1200
Valvoline VR1 Racing	20W50	SL	1200
Liqui Moly Touring High Tech	20W50	SL	1200
Penrite Classic Light	20W60	SG	1610
Meguin Megol HD Super Turbo	15W40	SF	785
Motorex Evotec SAE	15W40	SF/CD	1200
Pentosin HD Motorenöl	15W40	SF	1200
Rowe Hightech GTS Spezial SAE	15W40	SF	850
Ravenol Formel Super	15W40	SF	1000
Liqui Moly High Tech	15W40	SL	1000

[Motorsport Micky]

I think that's really confusing Drew.
As you can see the majority of those oils don't have a presence in the UK market, so showing the German Muscle car magazine with it showing Valvoline VR1 with a 1200 Zinc in ZDDP doesn't make it clear THAT'S OIL IS ONLY IN THE US...NOT AVAILABLE IN THE UK.
If you review the UK and European VR1 spec sheet you'll see there isn't any ZDDP quoted ...at all, the PDF attached is interesting, it's reviewed in my post above number 79.

https://www.valvolineeurope.com/english/products/engine_oils/vr1_racing/cid(7558)/vr1_racing_20w-50

I suppose you could import US VR1 as long as it stood up on cost...doubtful.

Micky

[dasadrew]

I realise that Micky but the posts leading up to that were about what oils you could get in Germany. There's a big muscle car market here so I imagine the economic case for importing oils is given. If the oils are in Germany then they're in the EU.

Signing off now

Drew

[RobinLegin]

I use Penrite Classic Lite. It helps with old starts and yet oil pressure is maintained when hot - even when no longer fresh. Both the Alvi and Stag seem happy with it. And both get an oil change once a year. So perhaps not a fair comparison as the Alvis does about 1,500 miles a year and theStag about 3,000 miles pa.

Just to throw more more into this discussion, when I worked for Shell, some of my colleagues in lubricants suggested changing oil too often and below recommended change intervals could do harm. Not sure how or why, as they should have been encouraging more sales! I’m sure somebody is going to put me right here.

Nigel

[StagJonno]

I'm with Micky. Unless the provenance of the stated 1200ppm Zinc can be shown, I'm not inclined to believe it's representative of the VR1 available in UK (and prob Europe generally). I too have been involved in contacting Valvoline for clarity on the spec for the UK - they won't say - just loads of marketing bull. Lots of information on the US VR1 and I suspect this could be the information source, but just because it carries the same tradename, doesn't mean it's the same stuff..

I'll vote with my wallet.

Jonno

[oilman]

Hi

I was asked to give my view on this, so here you go.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of poor information about ZDDP, often coming from US forums. ZDDP is good stuff, it forms a layer on the metal components and that wears away rather than the component. It's not good for catalytic converters and in some cases, spark plugs. Because of that, ZDDP is often reduced in a lot of oils aimed at modern cars. If you look at the specs an oil meets, anything with the API SM or SN specification will have a reduced level of ZDDP, but API SL and preceding specifications will have a full dose. Generally though, the sort of oil that you put in older vehicles will have a decent ZDDP level, it only tends to be thinner oils that have reduced levels.

Reducing the ZDDP content means that other anti-wear additives are added to the mix, it would be a bad idea to reduce the ZDDP and not replace it with an alternative. ZDDP additives have improved as well, making them more effective with lower amounts. That is often overlooked when people are talking about ZDDP. Also, the quality of the basestock and other additives is often forgotten about. Many of the high ZDDP oils are mineral oil based and basically they are rubbish oils with a lot of ZDDP, so as an all-round oil, they are pretty basic.

I spoke to Valvoline a little while ago because someone wanted to know the exact ZDDP level. Their reply was that ZDDP is part of the additive package and it has enough, the exact level is not necessary for the customer to know. They have a fair point, people get too obsessed about ZDDP, without thinking about the other parts of the oil. They don't consider the other additives, the basestock quality, the quality control during production etc. I think some people would be happiest with ZDDP granules in crude oil.

As well as the issues with catalytic converters (okay, not a problem with your cars) and with the spark plugs, it can also affect the detergents in the oil and there was a new study that showed that too much can increase wear, but annoyingly I can't remember the details. Also, over about 1200-1300ppm, there is no benefit in higher levels of ZDDP.

Don't be worried about the ZDDP content of Valvoline VR1. It's still an extremely popular oil for classics and I have not heard of anyone having any issues with it. Just because they choose not to give the ZDDP content out doesn't mean they are hiding a low amount, it's more that there are other good things in the oil. The oils that usually shout about the ZDDP content often have little else positive to say. If you look at the high end race type synthetics, they will mention a lot about the basestock quality and will mention the detergents etc, but rarely mention the ZDDP content, even though they tend to be around 1100-1600ppm.

Cheers

Tim

[jagorstag]

Hi

I was asked to give my view on this, so here you go.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of poor information about ZDDP, often coming from US forums. ZDDP is good stuff, it forms a layer on the metal components and that wears away rather than the component. It's not good for catalytic converters and in some cases, spark plugs. Because of that, ZDDP is often reduced in a lot of oils aimed at modern cars. If you look at the specs an oil meets, anything with the API SM or SN specification will have a reduced level of ZDDP, but API SL and preceding specifications will have a full dose. Generally though, the sort of oil that you put in older vehicles will have a decent ZDDP level, it only tends to be thinner oils that have reduced levels.

Reducing the ZDDP content means that other anti-wear additives are added to the mix, it would be a bad idea to reduce the ZDDP and not replace it with an alternative. ZDDP additives have improved as well, making them more effective with lower amounts. That is often overlooked when people are talking about ZDDP. Also, the quality of the basestock and other additives is often forgotten about. Many of the high ZDDP oils are mineral oil based and basically they are rubbish oils with a lot of ZDDP, so as an all-round oil, they are pretty basic.

I spoke to Valvoline a little while ago because someone wanted to know the exact ZDDP level. Their reply was that ZDDP is part of the additive package and it has enough, the exact level is not necessary for the customer to know. They have a fair point, people get too obsessed about ZDDP, without thinking about the other parts of the oil. They don't consider the other additives, the basestock quality, the quality control during production etc. I think some people would be happiest with ZDDP granules in crude oil.

As well as the issues with catalytic converters (okay, not a problem with your cars) and with the spark plugs, it can also affect the detergents in the oil and there was a new study that showed that too much can increase wear, but annoyingly I can't remember the details. Also, over about 1200-1300ppm, there is no benefit in higher levels of ZDDP.

Don't be worried about the ZDDP content of Valvoline VR1. It's still an extremely popular oil for classics and I have not heard of anyone having any issues with it. Just because they choose not to give the ZDDP content out doesn't mean they are hiding a low amount, it's more that there are other good things in the oil. The oils that usually shout about the ZDDP content often have little else positive to say. If you look at the high end race type synthetics, they will mention a lot about the basestock quality and will mention the detergents etc, but rarely mention the ZDDP content, even though they tend to be around 1100-1600ppm.

Cheers

Tim

Thanks Tim for sharing your thoughts on this oft repeated subject, much appreciated!

Cheers,
Joakim