Oil Pump Badly Scored

[Matt Cook]

Having bought my stag at the end of January I've been doing bits and pieces......oil and filter change, coolant flush etc. I've also fitted a mechanical water temperature gauge and an oil pressure gauge. Took her out for her first run after fitting the oil pressure gauge today. I should mention that the engine was rebuilt in 2013 and has only done approx 600 miles since then. So I was expected the oil pressure to be good. All fine to start with but on gentle acceleration with cold oil the gauge nearly went full scale....100psi not good, as the engine warmed up the oil pressure went the other way....dropping to about 5 psi at tick over when hot. Not good. Having read about the county pumps I suspected that my spring was too strong, but how to explain the low pressure......When I changed the oil and converted to a spin on filter the original filter bowl has some metallic oil past in the bottom, i put this down to the normal metal particles that come off after a rebuild.
So I decided the only way to find out what was going on was to take the oil pump off.....well the oil pump was very badly scored (see pictures attached) and the pressure relive valve was stuck half open. So that explains the oil pressure behaviour but what has caused such damage to the oil pump in such few miles? I'm pretty sure that the long County relief valve spring has been installed as I've compared it will a correct reproduced one from Robsport that I bough a few weeks ago...just in case! Could driving the pump at high pressures cause this damage or is something else in the engine disintegrating. I'm hoping a new pump and the correct spring will fix it and that the oil filter has done its job. Thoughts, opinions appreciated.

Thanks

Matt

[Guest]

That engine will need to be completely and totally stripped to pieces again.
It's full of swarf.
(If you don't, you risk an even bigger blow up).

Whoever put that combo of bits together needs to be .........(well I hope it wasn't you!)

[Matt Cook]

Hmmm not what I wanted to hear......It wasn't me that put it together. I'm the mug that paid top whack for a low mileage car with unmolested body work and a recently rebuilt engine!

[flying farmer]

Looks like the oil pump on the last engine I rebuilt. Despite a previous rebuild (maybe more than one) the engine was still full of casting sand, , I got about an egg cup full out of the jackshaft gallery and the oilways were full of the stuff too, and it was in the process of tearing itself to pieces.
Sadly it is quite possible the need for your cars previous rebuild was caused by casting sand and they never got to the cause of the problem.
I would suggest dropping the sump and looking at the state of the crank bearings but I fear you will find a lot of damage and an engine strip will be needed.

[davidf]

Check thoroughly the oil passages which are cast into the block from the sump suction pipe to the pump, to the filter, and on to the transfer housing. As far as i know, these are the only oil passages which were cast; I think from there on the rest are all drilled into solid casting. Unfortunately, the foundry at Bean Industries thought it would be fun to deliver all the core sand to the end customer still in the block.

[StagJonno]

You might have some recourse if you bought from a dealer. My understanding of the current law is that the dealer is responsible for 6-months for problems arising from from defects present at the time of purchase (with the onus being on the dealer to demonstrate otherwise). As far as I'm aware, this law applies to classics, especially as you were told the engine only had 600 miles on it. The Honest John website has information on this, and you can put your situation to them. If you wish to pursue this course, it might make sense for the engine to be stripped & examined by an independent specialist (eg Wards or Faversham etc).

If you bought privately, this won't apply, though you could ask the seller for some contribution.

Extract from HJ website https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/consumer-rights/


"during the first six months:

The consumer returns the goods in the first six months from the date of sale and requests a repair or replacement or a partial refund. In that case, the consumer does not have to prove the goods were faulty at the time of sale. It is assumed that they were. If the retailer does not agree, it is for the retailer to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale. This comes from Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, derived from EU Directive 1999/44/EU which became Clauses 48A to 48F inclusive of the Sale of Goods act in April 2003"

Jonno

[Guest]

You might have some recourse if you bought from a dealer.
If you bought privately, this won't apply, though you could ask the seller for some contribution.

Extract from HJ website https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/consumer-rights/

.. derived from EU Directive 1999/44/EU which became Clauses 48A to 48F inclusive of the Sale of Goods act in April 2003"

Yes you gotta be kidding.
I can't even get a so called "EU guaranteed refund" for an airline ticket or a bus ticket!
I wrote to the companies concerned (Air Baltic and Flixbus), and they just stuck 2 fingers up to me.

I have a case I handled last year where a dealer sold a Lotus to a customer of mine, without even a working engine, and having had the ECU nicked before it arrived...
Same old story, the dealer puts 2 fingers up to the customer, and says YES "ok take it to court, or maybe as a goodwill gesture I might refund the delivery price!!!" WTF!

The chances of getting a refund are not only so remotely unlikely (about as likely as Elon Musk landing a TESLA on mars!), that you are better just to DIY.

Even any OEM, such as Hepolite or GKN Vandervell, or AP will blame everything on you.

My sympathy btw

[StagJonno]

Interesting experiences you've had, Gareth. In the UK, if you've got a case, then a fairly low-cost small claims process -> judgement -> payment. No payment, then low-cost escalation to a High Court Sheriff. All costs are charged to the seller. Applies to airlines failing to pay compensation, too. Oh, and if you've used a credit card for even just a small part of the purchase, the credit card company will cover the "loss" too.

Interestingly, this legislation came out of an EU directive.

Jonno

[Munter]

Sounds like you’ve had some bad luck Matt, going by the answers your getting some sound advice too.
l would also pursue the legal route, and l agree with “ down the plug hole “ that engine will need to be completely stripped and cleaned, plus flush all oilways under pressure to get any remaining metal particles out.

N.B.
If your going to take the legal route don’t throw the oil filter away, and take plenty of good close up pics of any damage to metal componants, bearings etc.

Gaz

[richardthestag]

Hi Matt

That doesn't look great.

Contact the dealer in the first instance before doing anything to remedy the situation. Despite Gareth's experiences I have had positive experiences on goods not being fit for purpose within your timescales and getting refund or repair. The only problem I ever experienced was when choosing to get the repair done by the supplier (exchange cylinder head), it failed, then failed again and I changed my mind to a refund. too late, I had lost my right to a refund as soon as I accepted a repair -despite the repair not working. In the end they kept swapping it out until I got my original item back again. out of pocket and humour I gave up.

Onto your issue Matt a lot* of the discussion and flexing above is pointed towards the engine build quality. A whole load of hurruphing etc is not going fix anything

Just how about the engine was build beautifully and then failed as a result of activity the intervening period up until now.

I would have checked what sort of metal was in the filter bowl, metalilic or non-metalic. Metallic I would be very worried about. Non metallic could just be bits of the oil pump grenading.

You could still do this check, drain the sump into a clean uncontaminated container, use a magnetic pick up stick and waft in through the oil, use gloves because used engine oil is nasty carcinogenic stuff. Lumps of metallic material in the sump would give me cause for concern.

Next onto the original oil filter that you removed.

Were all the components fitted and in the correct order? In the pic below the two red arrows point to the essential bits that I have found missing in the past!!! The top arrow points to the adapter that fits into the bottom of the paper filter and the bottom arrow is the spring that pushes the adapter and filter unit so it is hard up against the engine block. I that is missing then unfiltered oil will have been running around inside the engine.

Next look at the original paper oil filter. did the metal end cap have a circular ridge pressed into it - they are the good filters.

Or did it have a card ring - some of these have had quality issues where the glue that secures the card ring melts and the ring shifts again allowing unfiltered oil to circulate the engine

Or was the top of the filter smooth - i.e. the card ring had already fallen off - again unfiltered oil could have caused issues.

Like Gareth is suggesting this engine may need a strip down and rebuild. You should however talk to the dealer in the first instance, despite them being potentially and hopefully unaware of any issue at the point of sale they are still responsible for ensuring that what they sell is fit for purpose. The engine does not sound fit for purpose, even though rebuilt it is not reasonable to expect to have to rebuild an engine just after purchasing the car!

Good luck mon brave

[Matt Cook]

Hi everyone
Thanks for your thoughts/opinions.

Richard, I'm pretty sure that the filter was installed correctly and it did have the circular ridge, I'm hopeful that the filter has done its job and it’s just the pump that’s destroyed itself. Wishful thinking I suspect.

I emailed the dealer yesterday with the same photos of the pump and he’s going to discuss the photos with his mechanic and get back to me later in the week. He’s making the right noises at the moment.

I’ll let you know how I get on.

[thebadleys]

I agree with Jonno, you would have recourse to the dealer who made statements that affected your decision to purchase and made claims that must be supported, irrespective of the age of the vehicle, the statements made about the vehicles condition and its history form part of the contract.

If there is no positive response from the dealer then legal action can be taken, save any and all of the components, even the oil, as supporting evidence and consider, as Jonno suggested, an independent engineer to inspect and report on the condition of the engine, you would initially have to pay for this but it would form part of you claim. The cost to you could prove very expensive and should the dealer offer any form of financial support be aware that this should not be accepted as a full and final settlement until the total cost of rectification is understood.

There may be others on the forum who are more informed on the current legal aspect the Sale of Goods Act but a person who is in a business selling cars cannot abdicate their responsibilities.

Nigel

[Matt Cook]

I'm in 2 minds now....assuming the dealer does the right thing without having to go all legal. Do i push to reject the care or do I get the engine rebuilt at the dealers cost. I note your point Nigel regarding full and final, if he does try to settle with a lump sum what should it be? I want any work to be done at a Stag specialist so I have Enginuity, EJ Ward, Faversham Classics and Rob Sport on my list, any others you would recommend or are any of those better than another? Close to Berkshire would be good. I haven't taken the sump off but I'm beginning to think the engine is badly damaged, see attached for the distributor drive.

[Guest]

Interesting experiences you've had,...In the UK, if you've got a case, then a fairly low-cost small claims process -> judgement -> payment.

Interestingly, this legislation came out of an EU directive.

EU directives?!
Ever tried to sue RYAN? Good luck.
Ever tried to get your money back off paypal, if they freeze it...waste of time, it's all in Luxembourg, and not even a bank.

Credit cards + protection huh! All very well for the UK, pointless in France, - won't cover.
Try suing a company in RIGA then (air Baltic)...which is what they insist you have to do......bah...they bribe the court too.

Take a flight from outside the EU into the EU, forget it, not protected at all.
Been there, done that multiple times, been to court, 2yrs later after multiple hearings all moved deliberately from 1 court to another for technicalities...AFL simply bribed the justice system again.

You lose each time, and have you seen how much you have to front these days for a claim of 10K?

I handled a warranty on a Jaguar E type once. (France).
They claimed the supplied axle was wrong ratio.
Took it back out, checked,turns out IT WAS THE RIGHT ONE.
2 days later after changing their crap leaky sump for a good machined one I brought also..

Tried to get redress off the garage at fault for time and travel. (2days work).
They wouldn't pay a bean. 600 quid in the !(@@#!#
These are just examples.....

If the trade can't be bothered to treat the trade properly, what chance the customer?
I have a very cynical view of anything to do with the motor trade, especially as a lot of the time I'm putting right other people's screw ups.

[thebadleys]

I'm in 2 minds now....assuming the dealer does the right thing without having to go all legal. Do i push to reject the care or do I get the engine rebuilt at the dealers cost. I note your point Nigel regarding full and final, if he does try to settle with a lump sum what should it be? I want any work to be done at a Stag specialist so I have Enginuity, EJ Ward, Faversham Classics and Rob Sport on my list, any others you would recommend or are any of those better than another? Close to Berkshire would be good. I haven't taken the sump off but I'm beginning to , think the engine is badly damaged, see attached for the distributor drive.

I have assumed you bought the car from a person who makes his living in the motor trade and has knowledge and experience of motor vehicles, he doesn't have to be a Stag specialist, if that is the case then he has responsibilities either as a individual or a company from whom you can seek redress if it is proved that his statements were incorrect and the vehicle did not meet the description and is within the scope of the .

Personally I wouldn't do any further work on the car until the dealers has responded to your complaint, which you must set out to him clearly, I would suggest in writing delivered to him by hand or recorded delivery, pointing out the discrepancies between his statements regarding the vehicles conditions and the work he claims has been done and provide photographic evidence of the issues you have discovered so far. Bear in mind that you will probably be without the vehicle for some time and if it goes to a specialist and should there be no conclusive evidence as to its failure you may have costs that will not be reimbursed.

However you will have to give the supplier the opportunity to rectify the problem , either by repairing the vehicle himself or allowing you to nominate the repairer, in which case you would have little or no input as to what is done as the repairer would be looking the vehicle supplier to cover the the costs and therefore seek his authority to any expense that is being incurred, the alternative is to claim a full refund including any cost incurred, this could include RFL licence etc.

The choice as they say is yours but you need to take urgent action otherwise he may claim your acceptance of the vehicle as you have begun to repair the vehicle without allowing him the opportunity of rectifying any issues.

Advice is can usually be made available from your local Trading StandardsOffice who may offer a opinion based on a hypothetical case and guide you to possible actions.

As I have said, make decisions as to your actions soon beginning with the letter.


Nigel