What !!!

[Registrar]

Chaps,

You are better at this than me so could you take a look at :

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2018-09-22/cars/ref-75-1973-triumph-stag/

And write something truthful about this car.

It is this sort of rubbish description by the auctioneers that makes my blood boil. I know that it was 'fully rebuilt' in 1989 so, no way has it only done 5k miles (although I conceed that it is only claimed that the odeometer reads 5k - but this is close to being reported to trading standards as far as I am concerned.)

What do you think chaps ?

Peter

[I am Groot]

I think its over valued, higher values are for the brown cars . Seriously yes a lot of adverts features mileage after major works or whats currently on the dial. I dont think this is a big con in this case though as they do state MOT back to the eighties.

[Motorsport Micky]

HHmmmm...shows 1900 miles in Sept 2005 where the on line MOT records go back to.

Micky

[jakesmig]

Brave man who brands all the narrative as untruthful, it is just the normal type of blurb included in most auctioneers catalogue descriptions, and is generally based on the information provided by the vendor. It is pointed out that the vendor has a car collection therefore it wouldn't be unusual for the car to have done very little mileage over recent years, and I don't think basing the price of a 45 year old vehicle on the odometer mileage is practical. A 45 year old car with genuine 10K mileage is likely to need more recommissioning funding than a regularly used 150K mileage car requires for the annual MOT, assuming you are sensible enough to go for one. Often a restored car will have the mileage turned back to zero, I put a new digital speedo in mine when I restored it, I don't have a clue, nor did I care, about the mileage on the car when I bought it, at the time it was 34 years old, the mileage on replaceable parts was hardly the major consideration, it was more the inner wings, chassis legs, sills etc.
I attended the Morris Leslie Classic Vehicle Auction at Errol back in June and, in general, all the cars had what I would consider high estimated values which was borne out by the bidding which tended to be 10 - 15% below estimate, except for an Escort cloned 2L 'RS' which, as described in the catalogue " started life in 1969 as a 2 door 1300 Automatic Super Saloon..........and was subjected to a major professional restoration and re-creation by its previous owner". It had an estimate of 10-12K which I thought was ridiculous but it eventually went for 16.2 K + fees vat etc,
At the same auction, a Porche 911 looked superb and had high reserve, but it was noted that when a viewer shut the drivers door a little hard, a dusting of rust fell off from the underside of the sill, and the pile got bigger as more viewers repeated the deed. Word soon spread and the car didn't get more than derisory offers.
More often than not most people attending auctions do so without rose tinted glasses and will see that Stag, and all the other cars, in the true light of day and will bid whatever they see as being appropriate. If a telephone or internet bidder pitches in without having seen the car or had someone view it then it does become 'buyer beware', but the hints come from those present at the auction, if bidding is slow t is for a reason, if it is frantic, it is also for a reason.
If you attend auctions you would find it is astonishing the descriptions that go with some rust bucket pile of crap, but in the case of the aforementioned Stag, the description seems to be run of the mill. You go, look, offer or don't, nobody forces you and often cars don't sell, its just a shop for second hand goods.

Going to auctions can be good fun, and some of the cars would make you drool, a lot will make you laugh.

John.

[DJT]

Unusual in that it is a UK car and has air conditioning.

Looking at the wear on the brake pedal rubber and the paint worn away on the handbrake lever I would be surprised if it has only done 5,000 miles, but then the MOT history does indicate only 4,000 miles in the last 9 years......

Nice looking car though, for a custard one!

[flying farmer]

It has probably been round the clock, most of my triumphs have only 15-20,000 miles on the clock and well polished pedal rubbers. Mileage on the clock is is pretty irrelevant on a car of this age, it is more important that any work done on it has been done properly!

[rwdstag]

At this age every stag on the planet is going to be a bit like triggers broom apart from the very few and even then be very wary
as said work done properly with an understanding of the bits and pieces is worth far more than a estimated mileage
mine has 80000 on the clock but who knows if that is the original Speedo
as with everything buyers beware
Rich

[Registrar]

I seem to be out of step here.

What I see here is a a Stag with screws holding the door cards on at the bottom, carpet hanging off the drivers footwell, a well worn pedal rubber, tears starting in the seat fabric at the pivot bolt point, incorrectly applied stripes, a rusty exhaust system, the cheap unoriginal wiper blades, corrosion starting in the headlight bowls and a decidedly ordinary engine bay and I look at the description as being 'one of the best examples we have seen in recent times', as having a 'fastidious owner' and being worth £20k. Well that's a load of bollox ! (As is most of the verbose prose - Harry Webster didn't design the engines and most weren't fitted with the auto box).

In amongst all this descriptive drivel I see no reference to things which actually affect the value of the car - the air conditioning is rare in this country and there is no mention of whether the hard top is with the car (the worth of air conditioning without the hard top is a bit of a difficult one but surely, these things ought to have been made clear - or at least should have been if the auctioneers knew their cars)

Forgive me for being blunt here but I've been an industrial valuer for thirty years. Within our brief we have sold quite a few car collections (including cars for over £1M each) and I have written many thousand item descriptions for auction catalogues but I've always been fair. I won't emphasize the bad points of an item but neither will I try to make something better than it actually is because i) that's the law and ii) I know that in the days of E-bay and on-line, people have got used to relying on the auctioneer's descriptions. Yes, I agree, More fool them !'.

The only way this car is worth £20k is if the odeometer mileage is believed, or partially believed, by potential buyers. From the wear and condition clues, I would say that this car has done around 60 - 80,000 miles but maybe it has been round the clock. If this was stated, would the estimate still be £20k ?

Why should I get upset ? Well, I see that there are a lot of people out there who suddenly have a pocket full of money (inheritance / pension pot / interest rates not worth saving for) and quite a few are turning to classic cars as an 'investment' Many are unwise in the ways of older cars and have turned to the so called 'professionals' to obtain some confidence in what they are buying. We all know that this is unwise - you just get rooked for more money by the dealers and auction houses than you do by a private seller - but that is what is happening. I take telephone calls from quite a few potential Stag owners and, believe me, there are many lambs lined up out there for the slaughter and that upsets me - especially when they proudly take their purchase to a Club meeting are are told the truth. The likelihood is that they will blame the Club for pointing out their foolishness and never go again - after all, one never likes to look foolish and rarely blames oneself. I believe that there is a line across which dealers should not step and this auction house is weaving around along it (Check out their other Stag which has the 'desirable Ford Essex engine which gives out more power than the TV8' and was delivered 'on March 1st 1974, the first day of the new M-registration for years 1974/75'. That car actually looks a very good car with lots of new parts used in the rebuild, shame about having the rear badges the wrong way round though - if it wasn't for the V6 and the black painted engine bay, I would say that it could be worth £20k).

Thank you all for participating but don't be too soft on the auction house, they are either inept or know exactly what they are doing. In either case they do not deserve sympathy as they are preying on potential future Club members.

Rich, I see quite a few car details and I would say that there are only about 40-50% Trigger's brooms. You would be surprised at the cars which are still 'original' or restored to an original spec. At some time in the future we may return to valuing 'originality' and a 'matching numbers' approach. I personally look forward to it instead of being condescended to with phrases like 'presented with the original bronze interior with period brown carpets' - Oh, bring me the sick bucket !

Peter

[mole42]

Hi Peter, you are spot on but it’s a difficult arena in which to battle. The lions are quite hungry and not out to give the Christians an easy time. I am minded of a Stag specialist near Birmingham that has recently tried to relieve a SOC member of £33k for a tarted up dog, when I was buying I visited them and was shown a tired car with A post rot. I was told to think of that as a ‘bit of welding’ and to note the extractor manifolds that were fitted. Needless to say, they didn’t sell to me. The cowboys are riding out there and are only too keen to lasso an innocent lamb.

i can only hope that we in the Club can advise where possible.

[Registrar]

Thanks Richard

I advise as well as I can if asked (and, as you can see, I don't pull my punches very often) but whereas 95% of Stag sales used to be private and very few were dealer sales, now it's turned round with the majority of sales being made by the lions. At 5 or 6k one can afford to make a mistake (I made a 3k mistake a couple of years ago with a Jaguar which had a hookey MOT and was a dealer sale from a private address on Ebay but I'll have the underbody rot done and deal with the gearbox problems when I get round to it and I'll get over it - it will become a decent price car instead of a steal) but at 20k plus it can be a disaster. A couple of years ago I received a letter from a member who wasn't going to renew as he had paid a lot of money for a recently restored car from an auction house not very far from Brooklands and found how badly the restoration work had been done only when he put it in for an MOT and was able to get it up on a ramp. He sold the car on as quickly as possible and took quite a large hit but he won't ever go near a Stag again - which hits at our reputation and the reputation of the car which the Club has spent nearly 40 years building up.

Peter

[Phil S]

That hits the nail on the head..one bad dealer and the car and club are pasted as the villains...if you are buying anything from anywhere that's not brand new get it checked..if you pay £10,000 whats another £500 or so for an independent report..they say let the buyer beware....heed this warning.
Phil