Sound Deadening

[Peter J]

Hi! I’m a new boy, so please be patient with me.
I’m considering buying a Stag and the one I’m interested in will require quite a lot of work being carried out, but I’ve been put off a bit, as a friend told me that there was asbestos in the various sound deadening panels. This is the first time I’ve heard of this, but I would be grateful for your comments.
Peter

[jakesmig]

Don't know if anyone has tested these for asbestos before, but if they had and some existed then it would have been on everyones shout list and would have been widely known about.

Perhaps the adhesive may contain some asbestos, certainly contact adhesives used when laying linoleum tiles / flooring did contain asbestos. We had to contend with this during building demolition, but HSE guidelines regarding these products swere fairly relaxed because the fibres were contained within a solid bonded material and were unlikely to become loose therefore hazardous. The material remained a hazardous material and had to be disposed of appropriately.

On a cynical note, the gestation period of asbestos related disease is in the order of 20 / 25 years, so depending on your age handling the material may be of little concern anyway.

[022Dave]

Hello Peter,

Welcome to the forum, and hopefully the club. I'm not aware of asbestos being present in the sound insulation materials, but historically there maybe some used in clutch & brake friction linings. Modern replacement components are generally asbestos free.

Dave

[thebadleys]

Taken from HSE website

Asbestos

Breathing in air containing asbestos fibres can lead to asbestos-related diseases, mainly cancers of the lungs and chest lining. Cases of asbestos-related cancer have been reported in garage workers, although the risk is relatively low. In motor vehicles

In the past, asbestos was used in motor vehicles as the friction material in clutches, automatic transmission and brake linings, and in gaskets. The use of asbestos in these components was prohibited from 1999, with the exception that pre 1973 vehicles could continue to be fitted with asbestos containing brake shoes until 2004. Therefore, it is possible that some older and 'classic' vehicles could still contain these asbestos containing products. The supply, possession for supply and fitting of asbestos products to motor vehicle, trailers etc is now banned. Care should be taken when removing an existing component that you suspect may contain asbestos (which must be replaced by one which is asbestos-free). Remember that all brake and clutch dust is potentially harmful, so it is prudent in all cases to

• never blow dust out of brake drums or clutch housings with an airline
• use properly designed drum cleaning equipment which prevents dust escaping; or
• use clean, wet rags to clean drums or housings

Any component which is suspected to contain asbestos including the rags used to clean the drums or housings should be disposed of as 'asbestos waste'. Follow the guidance in HSE's guidance sheet for the disposal of asbestos Disposal of asbestos waste .

Nigel

[garyf]

There must be a Stag owner that is or knows someone in the asbestos removal industry that can have a sample of the original sound deadening material analysed.
I would be very surprised if asbestos was present though I would of thought the club would of imeditly put it's hand in it's pockets and had some tested,even if it would open a can of worms if the result was positive
If I had the money I would get it done myself
Maybe we could chip in to get it done?
Gaz

[Peter J]

Thank you for all your comments, they have been very useful. My own opinion is, that it is very unlikely that asbestos was used and I’m sure you guys would certainly know if any was present.

[garyf]

No one's cares then
how sad

[StagJonno]

No one's cares then
how sad

Expecting a response in 6 hours on a Saturday morning is a bit optimistic. Good ideas, for "someone" to take on, are 10 a penny but what's needed is a realistic proposal with costs. How about doing a bit of research on outfits that offer a testing service and getting some information? Google is your friend for starters (other search engines are available).

Jonno

[DJT]

Which sound deadening material do you suspect? The stuff stuck to floor panels and inside the doors and rear wings is bitumen based, so unlikely to contain asbestos. Even if it does, the fibres will be adhering to the bitumen and extremely unlikely to become free. The sound deadening either side of the engine bulkhead is foam with a rubber coating. Again, no likelihood of asbestos. The original bonnet insulation pads are, I believe, glass fibres. Not good to inhale, so take the usual precautions.

As said above, many friction materials contained asbestos and the dust residue from them was very hazardous, but not recognised for decades. All traces of this should, by now, have been removed from our cars unless you have an extremely low mileage one that may still have its original clutch or brake linings. Selling NOS service items known to contain asbestos is illegal, but they are still seen at autojumbles.

I’ve worked with asbestos clearing operatives and have consigned many container loads of asbestos waste by sea, so take the risks posed by it very seriously. Earlier this year I had to attend the funeral of a cousin who died from Mesothelioma. He was 81, but only became ill last year. It is believed that he was affected by asbestos when he was an apprentice in Devonport Dockyard after leaving school, so it can take a very long time to take effect.

[thebadleys]

No one's cares then
how sad

As Jonno said Google is YOUR friend, nothing to stop you doing a bit of research, it took me 2 mins to view the HSE website.

Dave says it is very unlikely that the sound deadening material contains asbestos with which I agree, asbestos was generally used in friction and heat environments so I cannot think of any reason for it to be used in an inert situation like sound deadening pads, but I'm willing to learn.

It would be interesting to learn from the OP where his friend heard of this possible contamination.

Nigel

[CJG]

There was a post a while ago if i remember rightly from TDM with regards to him importing the stag to Tenerife, i'm sure his car was checked for asbestos and none was found.?

[Phil S]

sound/heat deadening now is full of pitfalls. I recently purchased some supposed sound and heat deadening pads from a reputed seller.
I wanted to insulate the underside of the transmission tunnel to stop heat ingress into the car. the pads are a closed cell foam with a fibreglass mesh over, then an ally foil. this is sold as suitable to insulate against exhaust heat. being cautious I put a match to the corner of a pad. it not only burnt but failed to self extinguish when the match was removed. the supplier would or could not supply a spec sheet but very quickly gave a refund and did not require the product to be returned.
purchase everything with caution.
Phil

[PhilB]

Doe anyone know whether some of the older cars with copper head gaskets contained asbestos within (between) the copper gasket casings? Looked like it to me when I changed one on my Mayflower that broke apart as I removed it (Probably about twenty years ago though)

[thebadleys]

Google is my friend again
EMS’s Guide to Asbestos In Classic Cars

We are familiar with the uses and frequency of asbestos containing materials in our buildings. Whether it be asbestos cement used in roofing sheets on a garage roof, or asbestos pipe lagging in a factory boiler room, we are aware of the dangers of such asbestos containing materials.

It is highly durable, flexible and has fantastic thermal properties meaning it was heralded for a variety of construction and industrial uses throughout the twentieth century before far reaching and serious health implications were discovered its use was finally banned in 1999. Asbestos was used in motor vehicles in clutches, automatic transmissions, brake linings and in gasket
However, asbestos was just as commonly used in the motor industry in the twentieth century for these reasons and therefore had significant uses in automobiles during this period. Asbestos containing components were just as useful to the engineering of a motor vehicle, for the same reasons as it was excellent for construction activities. Asbestos is therefore a very common component found in classic cars manufactured in the twentieth century. Use of the components was prohibited in 1999, when the UK introduced a ban on all importation and manufacturing of asbestos materials. However, there was an exception to this in that pre-1973 vehicles could continue to be fitted with asbestos containing brake shoes until 2004.

The automotive industry used asbestos heavily. This was largely due to the fact that asbestos possesses the unique ability to both insulate and prevent heat transfer due to its fantastic thermal properties. This makes it ideal for use in a wide variety of automotive applications which are centred around the internal combustion engine and friction-based brakes.

Amongst the most common car parts to contain asbestos are brake pads and shoes, gaskets, internal combustion components, clutches, heat seals and insulation. It is possible that older and classic cars could contain asbestos containing parts.

Care must be taken when replacing any of these parts in an older or ‘classic’ car, and it is recommended that you presume that they may be asbestos. These parts must only be replaced with non-asbestos containing parts. Caution must be exercised when purchasing or selling second hand car parts via the internet or other methods. Fitting of asbestos parts is illegal and selling asbestos containing parts is also illegal. The HSE states that: ‘The supply, possession for supply and fitting of asbestos products to motor vehicles and trailers is now banned’ (1) You should ensure that you have parts tested for asbestos if you are in any doubt about them. You will then be issued with a certificate for the product which will illustrate whether the component is asbestos-containing or not. It is possible that many cars manufactured in the twentieth century, may contain asbestos
The HSE also recommends that all brake and clutch dust is potentially harmful, so it is important in all cases to never blow dust out of brake drums or clutch or clutch hosing with an airline, always use properly designed drum cleaning equipment to prevent dust escaping, or use clean wet rags to clean drums or housings.

Likewise, the HSE also recommends that any component which is suspected to contain asbestos including the rags used to clean the drums or housing should be disposed of as ‘asbestos waste’. For further information on how to dispose of asbestos waste see the HSE’s guidance sheet for Disposing of Asbestos (2).



Listed below are some of the most common places to find asbestos in classic cars:

Brakes

Brakes are the most common place to find asbestos. Asbestos was used in brake shoes, pads and rotors and are still used in countries where asbestos is legal to use. Brakes rely on the forces of friction to function properly. Friction releases heat which the asbestos insulates against.

Hoodliners

Asbestos was perfect for use as hoodliners in classic cars as it protected the underside of the cars hood from damage due to engine heat.

Clutches

Clutches are built to withstand a great deal of friction and grinding, therefore asbestos was commonly used within clutch components.

Gasket materials

Gaskets were used in automobile hoses and engine parts. Asbestos was used to both increase durability and prevent heat transfer

Heat Seals

Heat seals were used to protect against heat transfer among many different engine and automotive parts

Packings

Asbestos packings were used in piston rings intended to reduce wear upon the cylinder walls of the cars motor

Engine Components

Internal combustion engines release heat. Engine components must be protected against heat to function properly. Asbestos was used in the engine parts components to serve this purpose

Body construction

Asbestos is also durable making it attractive for inclusion in fibre glass or plastic compounds from which auto-body parts were made

Insulation

Asbestos was used to keep the inhabitants warm or cool depending on the outside temperature

Car batteries

Asbestos was used as insulation in car batteries, both as loose fill asbestos between casing walls and in the casing itself.

https://www.ems-asbestos.co.uk

Nigel

[CJG]

That's Christmas sorted, Stag baseball cap, new shades, string back driving gloves and a 3m dust mask for next summers motoring.