Advice on buying a Stag thats SORN'd

[Jabba]

Hi,

Let me introduce myself, my name is Craig, I've just joined the SOC this morning. I've had a few classic cars over the years, Rover's, Jaguar's mainly and one Triumph Dolomite 1500TC. I'm currently looking at buying a Stag as my next classic car, I've found one not far from me that sounds good. I am planning to view the car soon but have found out that its sorn'd and has yet to be registered as a classic vehicle. It has alot of doucumented history and the owner was a SOC member. So the car has no tax and no MOT. What would your advice be as I am unable to test drive the car.

[CJG]

Hi Jabba and welcome to the club
From what you have said you appear to be familiar with the ownership and running of classics but with regards to the Stag you need to ascertain a bit more information first like how and how long has it been stood i would also be very reluctant to buy without driving first, but it also depends on how he is marketing it as a runner or a project, price will be a big factor in this as well.

The paper work can be sorted registering and taxing not too hard.as long has he has it.

How handy are you with the spanners and the likes as things can get quite expensive if you are not, bodywork being the most expensive to sort properly.

I would try and get someone who has owned, run and maintained a Stag with you when you view and lastly leave the rose tinted glasses at home and buy with your head not your heart.

All the best Chris.

[Neil in Deal]

Afternoon Craig,

"Welcome" to the SOC. You have certainly done the right thing joining the SOC BEFORE buying a car. Good move, which will hopefully pay dividends by helping you get the car which suits your budget....and your aspirations !
As per CJG's post above, try to get as much information from the seller as to just WHY the car is SORN'd ? Mechanical problems/personal issues etc. A good history should properly confirm the facts.
Would certainly try to get someone familiar with Stags to accompany you when viewing. Maybe not possible, but if you could get the car up on a lift, do so.
Any signs of rot/rust /leaks will soon become apparent.
There are a couple of books available which have sections regarding buying, a quick check on (for example) Amazon "Triumph Stag book" will get you there.
No doubt others will guide you towards the "rot-spots", but inner arches (front and rear), sills, B-post/sill/rear wing joining area, door bottoms (signs of surface rust stains on the treadplates/paint suggest water in the doors) and not forgetting the boot floor, hood storage area, outriggers......think you get the picture ! Bodywork is the really expensive area to have rectified.
Advice I gleaned before I bought my car was to buy the best you can afford, with a bias towards making sure the bodywork had previously been rectified, or really WAS rust-free. (I went along the previously rectified road, the car was SORN'd for no less than 7 years before it's restoration was completed....)
Engine:- can you get it started to check ?
As with ANY car on SORN, it can very much be a "minefield"...
One thing to bear in mind:- there are LOTS of Stags currently on sale, presently 103 on Car and Classic's website alone, ranging from projects to fully restored.
I travelled from Kent to York and Birmingham before buying my car. This turned out to be train fares and accommodation money well spent, as I found a car within my budget, and in the condition I wanted.
If you look on the SOC website you will find specialist garages who advertise there. If you are local to any of them, pay them a visit. They will be more than willing to help, and might even be able to point you towards cars they may know of that are for sale.
The SOC magazine classifieds also have cars for sale.
As previously advised, change the tint on any glasses worn from "rose" to "clear" !
There are PLENTY of cars out there - I'm glad I made a couple of 400 mile plus round trips to find "THE ONE" !
Very best of luck !

Neil.

[marshman]

Before you go and look at it get the reg no. and look at the MoT history here : https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history

Look at the previous mot's especially at the advisories and any reasons for failure. It can give you a feel for how the car has been maintained. Personally I don't like to see cars that have failed an MoT or have the same advisories year after year (unless it is minor like a windscreen chip). Too many and I tend to look no further unless it is cheap.

A test drive is usually last on my list when buying a car. I tend to have a good look at the car first (after looking at its history). As Neil said pay particular attention to the state of the body work. Don't be blinded by nice shiny paint work. Look (and look again) for rust, evidence of rust, or repairs. And nice big rust bubbles under shiny new paint then walk away. Look under neath, lift the carpets, look and feel round the wheel arches.

If it still looking good, start the car (check the engine is cold), and let it idle whilst checking things like the electrics - do all the lights work, windows, horn, wipers (self park) warning lights. does the brake pedal feel good, handbrake action OK. Then you can drive it up and down the driveway. dab the brakes etc, wobble the steering listen for clonks etc. select all the gears which should give you a reasonable idea. OK it won't tell you if the diff is noisy, the wheels wobble or vibrate but it gives a good idea of the overall state of the car, and in any case a test drive doesn't always reveal all of the problems.

At that stage if you still think it is a good car you need to negotiate - either agree a price subject to a satisfactory test drive which you can do when you collect after arranging insurance - tax and change of tax class to Historic can be done at post office - or take a chance but get the price knocked down appropriately. If you don't feel confident assessing the car in that way then leave it. As Neil says there are plenty about at the moment.

Roger

[Jabba]

Hi guy's many thanks for the warm welcome and advice, really appreciate it.

With regards to myself, I'm very much a hands on owner, I learnt after having my first car, a '74 mini that cost me as much to get it road worthy by the garage as it was to buy. So I taught myself after that and done a few resto's, all mechanical work as I leave the bodywork to the experts, not saying I'm an expert mechanic that it, by no means.

The car in question has been owned by the same chap for 22 years, all the MOT history online shows that its passed every year without fail. Unfortunately the last MOT expired Nov 2018, the owner unfortunately passed away and his son is now selling the car. I know you can't tell much from pictures, but it does look very clean. All his receipts/history is there aswell. The car is up for £11,000 and its cover 93,000 miles. Unfortunately the chap selling it doesn't know much about the car as it was his late fathers so he's unable to give much detail.

I have asked if I could view the car Friday as I pass it on the way home on Fridays, awaiting his reponse.

[StagJonno]

In my opinion, that price is high for a speculative purchase. It could well be that it's in tip-top nick (going through the inspections/ checks that Roger et al have recommended), but equally with out being able to test drive it the engine & running gear can't be properly assessed. My understanding is that an engine rebuild could cost up to £5k (others please feel free to provide better figures from your experience).

Some light recommissioning will probably be needed - charge battery (could be knackered if it's not had any charge for a couple of years), when turning on the ignition, listen for the clicking of the fuel pump which should stop after ~10 - 15 sec. If it continues to pump, look for any fuel coming from the carbs or through the overflow pipe that discharges at the front of the engine. To drive the car, then obviously tyres may need air and brakes may need freeing off.

If it's not been driven for 12 - 24 months, the petrol will probably have gone off (a feature of unleaded) and cause problems in starting/ running. If there's not much in the tank then you could use the fuel pump to empty the tank into suitable containers for disposal at your tip, though it may respond to a couple of gallons of premium fuel being added.

It's kinder to an engine that's not run for a while to take the plugs out and spin the engine over to circulate oil through to all points. If you're able, whilst in this state, get hold of a compression tester and check each cylinder. Then repeat the compression test after putting a drop of oil in each cylinder as you go. This will give some idea on the state of the pistons and rings and probably valves as well. If you post your results, then more experienced members should be able to give some pointers.

Good luck

Jonno

[barkerwilliams]

I bought a Stag that had never been SORN'd but had only done less than 1000 miles in sixteen years - obviously only driving to the MOT station. The SORN, or lack of it is no guarantee of anything.
Most classics are owned by older men and unfortunately illness takes its toll and good cars get SORN'd.
If you have time try and view a couple of others before you view this one so you have a comparison, Perhaps visit an auction company and you can have a really good look around at others with no obligation.

Number one is rust - internal rust is so expensive to cure you will despair.

Number two is rust

When you approach the car first open a door get your head in and sniff for that bad damp musty smell.

Number three is the engine, get it running and leave it running until it is really hot - check temp gauge, then check for any leaks when you switch off - look under the car.

Dare I say a rust free body and a good engine and the rest of the is almost immaterial.

All other items are relatively easy to spot and although can be expensive are not eye wateringly so.

Most items are fairly easily obtainable at reasonable cost, and the Stag is a very nice gentleman's car.


Alan

[marshman]

As Jonno says if it has been standing unused for sometime - at least a year we assume, but maybe two - then some "light" recomissioning may be needed - oil change, fresh petrol, may be a quick clean of the carbs, general check of oil levels, and If it has a BW35 auto box it may well have dumped a good portion of its fluid on the floor, so starting it up and going for a test drive is probably a bad idea anyway. Unless the bodywork is tip top and you are confident the mechanics are OK £11K seems a bit high. Bear in mind there are around 85 Stags for sale on eBay and car & classic, so lots of choice. But if it is as good as you say still worth a look and may be haggle.

Roger

[jakesmig]

Before you go and look at it get the reg no. and look at the MoT history here : https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history

Hi Jabba, welcome to the club.

I'm not on to advise regarding how to procede on buying a car, however regarding the relevance of the above 'MOT inspection information' I have had an MG Midget for 20 years and it has failed the day before it was presented for inspection on a regular basis, as has the Stag which I have had for 13 years. I think between them they failed at least a dozen times, and my daily driver failed a few times as well, although every time the car was presented for inspection they passed, apart from the Stag this year which had a broken rear suspension bush and did actually fail.

Until the Stag failed this year I had a clean inspection record dating back to 1985

I am not particularly bothered with these failures, but the explanation is simple. The garage, when questioned, explained that In order to give themselves a warm cosy feeling, Vosa require a certain percentage of vehicles to fail the test, which enhances their 'look how we are protecting you' attitude, and is why they generally insist a car is tested before it is serviced. The garage sometimes creates a ghost fail to keep the numbers up, ensuring they comply with the failure culture.

Better to be more cautious of a car with an MOT issued on a Saturday or Sunday, or after 6.00 PM at night

[marshman]

Hi Jabba, welcome to the club.

I'm not on to advise regarding how to procede on buying a car, however regarding the relevance of the above 'MOT inspection information' I have had an MG Midget for 20 years and it has failed the day before it was presented for inspection on a regular basis, as has the Stag which I have had for 13 years. I think between them they failed at least a dozen times, and my daily driver failed a few times as well, although every time the car was presented for inspection they passed, apart from the Stag this year which had a broken rear suspension bush and did actually fail.

Until the Stag failed this year I had a clean inspection record dating back to 1985

I am not particularly bothered with these failures, but the explanation is simple. The garage, when questioned, explained that In order to give themselves a warm cosy feeling, Vosa require a certain percentage of vehicles to fail the test, which enhances their 'look how we are protecting you' attitude, and is why they generally insist a car is tested before it is serviced. The garage sometimes creates a ghost fail to keep the numbers up, ensuring they comply with the failure culture.

Better to be more cautious of a car with an MOT issued on a Saturday or Sunday, or after 6.00 PM at night

Can't disagree with what you say but my point was that the MoT history helps to get a "feel" for the car. I still think the point about repeated advisories is valid and it also usually identifies a car that has had structural rust problems in the past.

I have also been told the "warm cosy feeling story" about VOSA expecting a certain number of failures. Also worth saying that even if the car has a fresh MoT, still check it over after you have bought it -MoTs are not a guarantee of anything.

[steve.n]

Hi Jabba, just a point, as far as i am aware if a car has been sorned it will need an mot before being driven on a public road or registered as historic, currently if it fails it cannot be driven on a public road until the faults are rectified ie you cannot even drive it home.
Steve

[dasadrew]

..... if a car has been sorned it will need an mot before being driven on a public road ...
Steve

From the UK Government Website: When you can drive your vehicle

You can only drive a vehicle with a SORN on a public road to go to or from a pre-booked MOT or other testing appointment.

I think the main issue would be insurance.

Drew

[Goldstar]

I don’t think insurance to or from the MOT is an issue Drew but obviously any other journey without an MOT could be problematical

[MandM]

HI Jabba, Welcome, as you are located in Kent . Trevor at Faversham might know the car and be able to advise you. good luck

Ps , it took me a year to find mine

PPs that if it's in Kent

[dasadrew]

I don’t think insurance to or from the MOT is an issue Drew but obviously any other journey without an MOT could be problematical

I would think the solution would be to arrange an MoT and use the drive to it as the test drive. The car would then also be able to be put on ramps and tested.

I'd be surprised if it were legal to drive without any insurance and I would shudder at the consequences if an accident with injury were to occur and the driver wasn't insured (speaking as someone who was run over on his motorbike by an uninsured drug addict in a Vauxhall Viva!)

Drew