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Trailing arm studs Helicoil to UNC ?

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    #16
    Remaining thread material at the thread throat area is the important dimension. The overall dia of parent metal thread and overall helicoil although similar leads to different results.

    The original trailing arm castings had their patterns for the hub retention blanks positioned by a 3 month in service YTS (remember it's the 70s) spotty youth, ...unfortunately he was drunk ! This has lead to...variable positionings (the photo in No 12 post above looks pretty good to me) and I've found quite a few trailing arms where additional helicoils have breached the side walls.

    The helicoiled 5/16" is obviously within an larger outside coarser thread form of the helicoil, but doesn't mirror it's shape exactly.
    ie M
    ....m
    This requires a tapping drill dia of .328 thou in the trailing arm to be used to tap and then draw the expanded helicoil down to a finished required interior thread size of 5/16th.
    However a 3/8th UNC thread in parent metal (the trailing arm directly) only requires drilling at .312 thou dia (which happily is the size of the hole in the trailing arm when the 5/16th UNF threads are stripped or corroded out of it). This paltry 16 thou extra retained material in the hole dimension adds extra strength to the fasteners employed. That allows the 3/8th tap to achieve it's UNC form which has a thicker thread throat dimension (the material measured across the thread at it's base as it transfers into the core dia of the stud), with more retained material than can be achieved at the same dimension in the helicoil. ie it's achieved torque strength is stronger.
    However strong the helicoil it's limited by the strength of the material it's fitted in.
    Helicoils are excellent, on large engines subjected to repeated removal of the fastenings (ie Rolls Royce truck engines) the cylinder head threads are all helicoiled from new. This allows the helicoils to absorb wear and be replaced if a problem is found in their thread form.
    If you examine the comparison photo (post No 8 above) of the standard stud against the hybrid 3/8th UNC-5/16 UNF stud, you will see the hybrid stud is longer on it's thread form by about 3 thread sections. This is useful for it allows you to continue drilling the original 5/16 dia hole deeper into virgin material and use this useful addition for extra threads and strength in the stud fixing.

    Micky

    PS: Whether the above influences your choice of retention method for enhanced rear hub fixings, many of the TR racers using their IRS/Stag Innsbruk trailing arm systems, drill and tap the trailing arms 3/8th UNC and use 3/8th UNC cap head bolts through the enlarged hub bolt dias to suit...apparently they don't come off.
    Last edited by Motorsport Micky; 6 February 2022, 13:13.

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      #17
      Micky,

      Any advice on opening up the stud holes on the hubs for the unc studs ( or bolts) Would you need some kind of jig for that as well?

      Terry
      Terry Hunt, Wilmington Delaware

      www.terryhunt.co.uk

      Comment


        #18
        Because these are a “ spot” dia with a not very thick flange ( as against 6 x fitted studs with very close tolerance holes slipping onto them) just concentrate and try and keep the drill at 90 deg in both planes as you drill the flange by hand.
        The cap heads can be manipulated individually which will allow quite a bit “wiggle” room as you rotate the shanks.

        Micky.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by trunt View Post
          Micky,

          Any advice on opening up the stud holes on the hubs for the unc studs ( or bolts) Would you need some kind of jig for that as well?

          Terry
          Terry l lol at www.pattonmachine.com He sells a jig for the job.


          Trailing Arm Repair Kit (TAK) - Contents

          (Fits TR6, TR250, TR4A IRS & Stag**

          Cheers Glenn

          Last edited by Seaking; 6 February 2022, 19:17.

          Comment


            #20
            +1 for https://www.pattonmachine.com - the instructions are very helpful too

            Comment


              #21
              The issue I’ve seen is where the original drillings aren’t concentric to the casting bosses, meaning there isn’t enough material to go up a size. That isn’t always the case, depends on how far off the drillings were to the casting bosses.
              Last edited by jbuckl; 9 February 2022, 23:05.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Seaking View Post
                Terry l lol at www.pattonmachine.com He sells a jig for the job.


                Trailing Arm Repair Kit (TAK) - Contents

                (Fits TR6, TR250, TR4A IRS & Stag**

                Cheers Glenn
                Yes, I have purchased that jig and used it to do my trailing arms.

                What I am asking is about the hubs themselves, the holes are sized for a very accurate fit on UNF threads and UNC will not go through so the brake plate and hubs need to be drilled out to accommodate them..

                ahh. Micky posted the answer.

                Terry
                Last edited by trunt; 6 February 2022, 20:51.
                Terry Hunt, Wilmington Delaware

                www.terryhunt.co.uk

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Motorsport Micky View Post
                  Because these are a “ spot” dia with a not very thick flange ( as against 6 x fitted studs with very close tolerance holes slipping onto them) just concentrate and try and keep the drill at 90 deg in both planes as you drill the flange by hand.
                  The cap heads can be manipulated individually which will allow quite a bit “wiggle” room as you rotate the shanks.

                  Micky.
                  OK. Good to know.. I was a bit worried about drilling my brand new CCD hubs so didn’t go there!
                  Terry Hunt, Wilmington Delaware

                  www.terryhunt.co.uk

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by jbuckl View Post
                    The issue I’ve seen is where the original drillings are concentric to the casting bosses, meaning there isn’t enough material to go up a size. That isn’t always the case, depends on how far off the fillings were to the casting bosses.
                    You've got the right idea but you've typoed it.

                    "The issue I've seen is where the original drillings are concentric to the casting bosses, meaning there isn’t enough material to go up a size."

                    Where the original drillings ARE concentric (as you meant to say...I think) there IS enough material to go up a size, you meant to say where the original drillings are NOT concentric there isn't enough material to go up a size.

                    In fact because the original hole size (5/16") is used in a 3/8th UNC tapped hole and there is untapped original material at the bottom , I'd argue that the larger size allows you to reclaim the trailing arm.

                    Micky

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Motorsport Micky View Post

                      You've got the right idea but you've typoed it.

                      "The issue I've seen is where the original drillings are concentric to the casting bosses, meaning there isn’t enough material to go up a size."

                      Where the original drillings ARE concentric (as you meant to say...I think) there IS enough material to go up a size, you meant to say where the original drillings are NOT concentric there isn't enough material to go up a size.

                      In fact because the original hole size (5/16") is used in a 3/8th UNC tapped hole and there is untapped original material at the bottom , I'd argue that the larger size allows you to reclaim the trailing arm.

                      Micky
                      Yes should’ve been aren’t concentric…. You missed the other typo:- fillings instead of drillings…. Predictive text did that when I edited the original.
                      Last edited by jbuckl; 9 February 2022, 23:07.

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