Noisy water pump on start up

[Lemp1953]

Morning Chaps and Chapesses
My water pump (12 Vane) seems to be noisy when then cold and then disappears after less than a minute even though being replaced only 2 years ago.
Is it a sealed bearing or can it be serviced with new parts. Is it a concern to ignore it or is there an additive to put into the water system to lubricate it and just having rebuilt the heads the thought of stripping of the inlet manifold off again is very annoying.
Cheers Mike

[richardthestag]

I would be worrying quite a lot about that

[Lingen]

Mike.
What makes you think the noise is coming from the water pump?
Mike.

[Wheelz]

The bearing is lubricated by splash from the engine, and is nowhere near the coolant.
If the noise is coming from the water pump, then it must be inspected to find out the cause. Especially check the pump and jackshaft gears.

[Lemp1953]

I used an mechanics trick of putting a screwdriver on the pump housing and put my ear to the top of the driver and the noise corresponded with pump spinning around, not scientific I know but close.

[Lemp1953]

Hi Chris, can you elaborate as to what splash means please.
thanks mike

[flying farmer]

The water pump teeth are lubricated via a couple of grooves on the jackshaft front bearing which squirt oil back at the water pump as the groove passes over the oil gallery from the crank.
Age of the water pump means nothing, its whether the shaft was correctly hardened. My first Stag suffered total jackshaft seizure after only 15,000 miles (according to the reciepts that came with the car)

The genuine Unipart pump was one of the unhardened ones and it destroyed the teeth on the jackshaft and pump, seized the shaft, snapped the timing chain and bounced all the valves off the pistons on the left bank.
It was an expensive and time consuming fix and was the final straw when it came to original pumps which is why I now have 3 Stag engines with electric pumps and one Stagdad conversion.

I certainly wouldn't ignore the problem, and even though its a PITA to remove the pump, the consequences of pump failure can be messy.

Neil

[Lemp1953]

That's pretty scary and thanks for the info.
Mike.

[jbuckl]

can anyone find the illustration that shows the 6 vane & 12 vane cover differences please?
I tried to search but could not find it.

[Motorsport Micky]

That's pretty scary and thanks for the info.
Mike.

Back in the 1990s it wasn't uncommon to have Stags go down with these soft gears on the water pump or even newly remanufactured jackshafts (which has inter engaged gears to the water shaft) being made of toffee. this often caused blown head gaskets and engine destruction if you didn't spot the soaring temperatures (water pump stopped turning).
Mine brewed up on the motorway with a blown head gasket so I stripped the engine (5000 miles since being supplied to the previous owners rebuild from Rimmers) and fitted a new water pump and new jackshaft and 1500 miles later it turned itself into a 3.0 litre kettle AGAIN with not only soft water pump gears but a soft jackshaft as well " !
I decided to sort this hardness problem out once and for all, new purchases of replacement parts were hopeless, ALL the Stag specialists were selling the same c r a p parts and the only response which varied and was different was the "first complaint we've had", "never had a failure before" etc etc which were swapped between the various specialists on some sort of rota depending which outfit had supplied the parts earlier. ! NONE of them stood up and said we'll bottom this with our suppliers...why should they they were happy taking the money and whatever the costs borne by owners didn't come from their banks.
I decided that wasn't a dance I was doing and sourced a used jackshaft from a broken Stag that showed nice bright markings on the jackshaft teeth and supposedly had 50,000 thou on it (it was obviously hard when tested with a file), and a visit to the local scrapyard sourced a TR7 water shaft from a scrapped car which having the water pump removed by me (£10 I remember, it was the 90s !) had nice bright markings on the teeth and the file test skimmed off nearly taking my eyebrows off...hard. That was over 25 ,000 miles ago and the engine still runs well and now does not have the soft gear problem.

Believe me, as Neil says removing the inlet manifold to check the gears for end float or excess wear is the least of your problems, a weekends easy work will decide whether the noise is excess clatter caused by wearing teeth on pump or jackshaft and can be resolved easily (lots easier than taking the heads off if it causes a blown gasket) with the engine and heads in position and your swear box in the garage not benefitting from your frustration with major head skimming costs being experienced.

Micky

[Lingen]

Julian. I don't know of any illustration other than the one on page 02-20 of the parts catalogue. You would need accurate illustrations of the underside of a Mk1 and a Mk2 next to each other, to identify the different angles of the impellor blades and their matching covers.
Perhaps someone could do that on the Forum???
Mike.

[jbuckl]

Julian. I don't know of any illustration other than the one on page 02-20 of the parts catalogue. You would need accurate illustrations of the underside of a Mk1 and a Mk2 next to each other, to identify the different angles of the impellor blades and their matching covers.
Perhaps someone could do that on the Forum???
Mike.

yes, thanks, there is a post that shows the difference.
spent an age searching for it… couldn’t find it though.
can Dasadrew come to the rescue?

[Wheelz]

yes, thanks, there is a post that shows the difference.
spent an age searching for it… couldn’t find it though.
can Dasadrew come to the rescue?

If it's any help, I have a couple of covers which might be representative of the two types:

6 vane has no casting ID and has an angle of approx 40 degrees from horizontal ( 2 samples)
12 vane has STANPART on the top of the casting, and is 29 degrees (1 sample).

[jbuckl]

Thanks chris, the picture I recall seeing but can’t find made the difference very obvious… anyone else able to find that?
the search here is about as useful as finding a peace agreement with poo-tin Oops I’ll get my hat.

[JeffW]

Thanks chris, the picture I recall seeing but can’t find made the difference very obvious… anyone else able to find that?
the search here is about as useful as finding a peace agreement with poo-tin Oops I’ll get my hat.

Hans shows the difference at 4:55 and following here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VklGz6-U0Xw

Pics attached are a 12 vane, showing the stamping and less acute angle underneath.

I distinctly remember a good photo of the two but can't find it either!

Jeff