Starter motor solenoid wiring query

[Tony Triumph]

Thanks Terry,
Yes, and yes, an original type starter motor and this trouble only reared up when we tried to start up with the new starter motor fitted. It cranks the engine at speed, compared to the old one!
The white and orange wire feeds 12v from the riveted solenoid terminal, to the plus terminal of the coil whilst cranking only, I believe (see workshop wiring diagram). My terminal has only 6v (approx) whilst cranking, which is not enough to start the engine it seems.
Have now ordered and received new white orange wire and have made special test lights to go in circuit, whilst cranking, to see where I have and have not got 12v. Hope to resume this testing in the next couple of days. Can't wait to find the culprit!
Tony.

[trunt]

Ok if you see 6v at the starter terminal it’s probably because it’s connected to the coil by the white orange wire and there is always 6v there with ignition on. So therefore the wire seems OK. Try looking at the voltage at the starter terminal without the white orange connected. it should be 0v normally and 12v whilst cranking.

Im thinking it’s the starter…it’s not switching the terminal on.

[Tony Triumph]

Thanks again Terry. It seems as though I will have to wait until early September to find the cause of the trouble.

I have spoken to, the very knowledgeable and helpful 'Mick' of E.J.Ward who has amazed me and said when you have the excellent Lumenition ignition system fitted you don't need to worry about the white/orange wire. The Lumenition takes care of everything ...... or words to that effect.
Mick is going to take the car and find the trouble for me during early September.

Tony Triumph.

[trunt]

That’s true, if you have a decent electronic ignition the ballast system is pretty much not needed, but it does need a suitable coil. That’s what I run..

It’s not hard to put that bulb you have onto the terminal (no white orange connected) and see if it lights during cranking to see if starter is indeed the issue.. try it .. if only to see if I’m on the right track!!!

[Tony Triumph]

Thanks Terry ..... I wish I was on the right track!
Everything has ground to a 'dead' stop now until September, with JPP, the Stag, still not starting without a 12v direct jump wire attached.

I'm being told by a very well known and reliable Stag dealership person, that if I have Lumenition installed, I don't need to be concerned about the white/orange wire from the solenoid not producing 12v during cranking. As I understood it from him, the Lumenition takes care of all that is needed! Well, I only have one wire, to the coil, from the Lumenition, purple in colour and to the coil terminal marked negative! At my monthly meeting last night, we looked at a Mk2 Stag and that had just one purple wire attached to the negative marked terminal.
Another Stag owner at the meeting said, ah yes, but Mk 2s have 12v coils, not 6v ones like a Mk1. I've looked at the Triumph 'Repair Operation Manual' and it shows even Mk2s have 6v coils with no sign of a 12v coil!
Further other talk was mentioned about Lumenition and 9 volts!

Can you Terry, or anyone else, comment on the above please,

Tony Triumph

[trunt]

Pretty sure that all stags have ballast ignition so original coils are all “6v” on a Mk 1 the difference on mk 2 is that they don’t have a resistor, they use a resistance wire instead, same result. Its pretty simple to convert a mk1 to 12v, just get a “12v” coil and eliminate the ballast resistor by moving the white ignition wire to the other side of it.

Im in agreement that ballast system is not really needed when you have a decent spark with electronic ignition.

Don’t worry about the 9v thing, the voltage at the coil with a ballast is pretty variable,

[wilf]

IMHO, the ballasted coil system is still needed with a basic Lumenition setup, which is, in reality, simply electronic points. Only if you have a full CD (capacitive discharge) ignition system (like an MSD) can you ignore ballasts, since a CD system not only replaces the points, but also provides the energy to excite the HT coil.

[Philip Wardle]

The Lumenition Optronic describes itself as an "infra red solid state breaker less ignition system". It replaces the mechanical points without doing anything else, which is perhaps why its so reliable. The instuctions (FK.113) don't say anything about needing to change the coil / ballast set-up so I just leave this as-is, the Optronic seems happy to inherit any standard set-up.

As-built Stags have a 6 volt / 1.5 ohm coil + ballast resistor set up, the only variation being whether the ballast restistor is a visible part (Mk 1) or Eureka wire in the wiring loom (Mk 2). This helps with starting by compensating for the temporary loss of battery voltage at the coil while the starter motor is cranking and drawing a very heavy load, still of benefit with Optronic.

I don't have experience of CD ignition systems but assume they gain a performance advantage from having a 12 volt coil once the engine is running whilst also being able to tolerate loss of battery voltage during cranking.

On standard cars some people perhaps see that the visible part disappeared on the Mk 2 and assume Triumph changed the coil to 12 volt, and of course some cars have subsequently been changed to 12 volt if the Eureka wire fails.

[Tony Triumph]

My thanks to everyone, I'm learning more and more, bit by bit!
So, at the moment I still believe, my start up failures, are because the car's starter motor solenoid is not delivering 12v up to the coil via the white/orange wire. i will have to wait until the 1st week in Sept to get this finally resolved,
Thanks again all,
Tony Triumph

[Tony Triumph]

Hello again everyone,

I'm writing this update with a great deal of embarrassment having spoken to a knowledgeable classic car auto electrician. It seems my knowledge is way out of date and I have made significant bad mistakes in trying to fix a start up 'click nothing' syndrome myself.
The main big mistake I made was not to give my other auto electrician a starter motor which did not come from my own Stag - oops number 1! So, he says to me, how do you know the motor you gave him was for a Stag? Well, I says, it looks the same .... so it must be the same! oops number 2! So anyway, he is coming round next week to try and sort things out, which may require updating my Mk1's 53 year old electrics to be compatible with the modern electrics of today - oh well - 'originality' straight out the window!

Tony Triumph

[trunt]

I wondered when you said it had different terminals..

you still have a few choices.

1. Get a Stag starter
2.Use a relay to mimic the original operation.
3. Buy a new coil and go without the ballast.

[Tony Triumph]

Thanks for getting back.
Well my knowledgable classic car auto electrician came round and did his assessment with his test light and got me to try and start it while he checked which terminals had current and which didn't.
Then he hit me with so much information, I just couldn't take it all in, but it all left me gob smacked! His take on it all was that when the Stag Mk1 came out, Triumph had to use the auto electrics that they could buy off the Lucas production line at that time of production for the MK1, which included starter motors with solenoids. This was already way out of date. The origin of this technology is/was pre war, including using a 12v car with a 6v coil. Crazy he thought! Little by little the system was updated electrically - hence the Mk2 arrangement, but which was still well out of date with the times. He said that using a starter motor with a solenoid was crazy! He said the British car industry and auto electrical suppliers just couldn't adapt to the new simple ways of doing things ('you can't teach an old dog new tricks' .... comes to mind)
So, he gets under the car with a diode and connects it across the two small solenoid terminals. On his signal he says ok, now start it up. One turn of the ignition key, and it starts straight up!
He also has recommended I now fit a 12v coil.

I now feel a bit of a 'know nothing'

Thanks to everyone for their feeds on this subject over the last couple of months,

Tony Triumph.

[MandM]

are you sure you dont just have a problem with the small terminal that supplies power (12volts) to the coil from the solenoid when the starter is cranking, if this is damaged then?

IMG_20180822_124505.jpg the tab on the left.

[Lingen]

Tony.
I will leave it to others to also comment on your story, but I think it was a load of ill informed nonsense, even if he did get the car going. The ballast coil system was used by many European manufacturers,at that time, including Volvo, Rolls Royce, etc. as were starter motors that were engaged by solenoids. Come to think of it, the one on my Audi A3 also had one..
The original one on my Stag is now 50 years old, and still working perfectly, in spite of being made by Lucas.
Think yourself lucky BL didn't buy their parts from France or Italy!
Mike.

[trunt]

The diode will of course work but the feed is not really "clean" 12v. The Mk2 has exactly the same ballast system and starter just with a different form of resistor.

As Mike said, Ill informed nonsense indeed.