Advice on Previous Welding Repairs

[StokeyStag]

Today I started stripping the underside of my car between the wheel arches and on either side of the transmission tunnel as some of the paint had decided to part company with the car. Luckily, for me doing the stripping, there was no underseal, just a red oxide primer and black topcoat.

Then I found the previous repairs and it looks like whoever did the welding didn't ensure that the new metal was sitting tight against the original panels as there is filler stuffed along the edges in places. I'm sure that the new metal has been welded but I'd like a second (and third etc.) opinion. The affected areas are the front outrigger, a patch between the floor and sill and another patch at the rear of the floor pan. I've taken a couple of videos so that you can see what I mean.

Part 1 - http://vimeo.com/63974613

Part 2 - http://vimeo.com/63974614

Any help / advice gratefully received.

Thanks

Mark

[Princejohny]

Hi Mark,
Having done these types of repair in the last year, I'm certain that 'new' metal has been added. MOT rules state that continuous (seam) welding is needed which obviously hasn't been carried out.
I'm guessing that the outriggers have a patch of metal thinner than original part welded over the top of the old ones and any gaps plugged with filler and underseal.
At the very least it needs rewelding with a Mig welder at home. The gaps in the floor pressed grooves may need hammering closer.
I think the purists on here will say chop the patches off and start again...
Cheers Johny

[Motorsport Micky]

Err...well although it would make my heart sink I think that the only way you are going to know what is truely under there is to strip those patches off and do the job properly.What would concern me is that the previous owner has not even let the replacement steel into the shell in areas where it is as easy to do it right as do it wrong.

Because you've asked for advice I can say that in my opinion you need to do the following.
At least it won't take long, grind off the occasional welded tack and remove the panels and make your judgement then, I expect you'll see some nasties but as long as you are willing to invest the time it can all be reclaimed.
Very rarely is it good practice to overweld a panel, on these shells the stresses need to be transferred through the panel in a linear plane, that means removing the rotten area and butt welding in a repair patch which fits edge to edge. An overpatch especially with pidgeon **** welding doesn't cut it.
Sometimes a MOT tester will fail a repair in critical area (near suspension for example) because he can't see what is behind and be assured that the rust in that area has been attended to. Make up replacement panels to the same profile as the floor or sills, quite a good job can be done using blocks of wood and large hammers to imitate any webs or pressings in the floor panel for example, place them on the rotten panel and scribe a line around them. Remove the replacement panel and cut away the rotten area below on the original, reoffer up the replacement panel and tack weld with butt welds into position. Ensure the fit is good, sometimes a little "dressing" with a hammer to bring the shape into line is necessary, when satisfied "stitch" the panel with welds no longer than about 30mm in each place moving around the panel to avoid overheating it. When the outside is completely welded up protect the surface with whichever paint system of steel protection and paint you wish.

Hope this helps, nil desperandum - attack.

Micky

[Firept]

Mark.
For what its worth my opinion would be to remove most of that and replace with known good repair panels, its difficult to see exactly but if any of those panels are "sandwich" construction i.e new on top of old then they will fail and some of the welding looks a bit like bird droppings.
I always think if you are doing a job do it right and do it once, many of us are picking up the problems of the "MOT" patch just enough to get it through the next MOT and no more than £50.00 spent. I confess back in the 70's and 80's to having done this as the car at the time was worth nothing but I needed transport!.
Its your call how much time, space, experience and the will to take it on.
I trust you get some more informed advice other than mine.

Whatever you decide best of luck.

Paul.

[keeny]

Hello Mark by the sound of your voice on the video's you seem like a very positive chap and well done with your work so far.im not a purist but if it was me I would do as Paul says other wise you will revisiting this job again.If you carn't weld I'm sure you would pick up Mig welding very quickly it's not that hard
Keep the updates coming
All the best
Keeny

[StokeyStag]

Thanks guys,

When the wire brush attachment hit the filler the smell took me back 30 odd years and I guessed I was up Excrement Avenue (I was very well brought up you know ). I guess I'll have to spash out on a MiG welder and learn fast. Meanwhile I'll strip the nearside and boot floor today, oh joy.

Just realised that it's DiD next Sunday, wondering what to do about that ? I might splash some red oxide primer on the floor whilst I get the kit & parts and find the time (plus the skill & experience) to do the necessary.

Thanks again.

Mark

[len]

hi
i have done plenty of underside welding on my stag. i would say in all honesty most of the repairs that have been done to your stag are not shall we say ... great !
i would approach it two ways
1, get it throgh a mot after resealing it , if you cant take the time at the moment to strip down now.
2, take it all off and start again

i would say be prepared for plenty of work though if you strip it off, as generally its worse than it looks !
cutting pieces in and welding is a slow process
do you need your stag at the moment ?
you may be able to find someone locally who would take this on.
welding doesnt allways cost a fortune,
kind regards and good luck
Len

[flying farmer]

Personally I would hide it all with filler and underseal then worry about it when rust starts breaking through again.

Most of the "repair" work on my stag was to the same standard, just well concealed with seam sealer (hence my recent MOT may be delayed by a few days thread). To do the job properly will take weeks rather than days and is not something you need to be starting at the beginning of summer. MOT testers are not allowed to hammer of gouge at the underside of the car these days so if it looks cosmetically good it will pass. This of course does mean that an MOT on an old car is virtually useless as far as structural integrity is concerned.

I have managed three years of use with my Stag before having to cut out the poor repairs and start again on the underside (sadly only 2 years for the rear arches), and I am fully aware that the front arches are probably similarly bodged and this will keep me busy in another Winter or two.

At least this will give you plenty of time to aquire a MIG welder and get some practice.

Neil

[milothedog]

MOT testers are not allowed to hammer of gouge at the underside of the car


Not really true, this is the approved tool they have to have on site and can use this to asses the integrity of the area they are checking.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SYKES-PICKAVANT-CORROSION-ASSESSMENT-TOOL-MOT-0592000-/160434091491

Ian

[73stagman]

This whole discussion depends on your view of the MOT as a concept.
Is it just legalised robbery.... just patch over the rubbish, hide it from view and pay your money and get the paper work so that you can drive a badly repaired possibly rotten car on the road..... or is it a means of attempting, not always successively it has to be said, to ensure that only cars of an acceptable condition are driven on the road.... Do the repairs properly, have peace of mind that if you are involved in a RTA, as they like to be known as, that you are not likely to be left sat or lying on the road way whilst your car collapses into a pile of nicely painted plastic padding and metal pieces.
For me the cost of doing it properly once out weighs all the arguments for doing a number of bodges over and over again.
Sorry but if you find bad workmanship by a PO than you are under some sort of obligation to fix that and not just cover it up again.... that makes your work as questionable as the PO's in my opinion.

[StokeyStag]

Well, thanks Neil (Flying Farmer) and Neil (73stagman) - between you both I'm now between a rock and a hard place. Either cover it up and live with it until some point in the future or tackle it now.

Whenever I do anything I like it to be as near spot on / perfect as my abilities allow so I understand where 73stagman is coming from, albeit not altogether in tune with his last sentence (unless thinking of passing the problem on to some other poor soul).

On the otherhand, Flying Farmer's comments are pragmatic - I would get to use the car this summer and maybe beyond and have time to learn to weld and even find a suitable space where I can do the work. It's the "will take weeks rather than days" bit that puts me off the whole damn thing. I suppose I should check the floor from the inside before I finally decide ?

Anyway, I'll probably cover and paint up in the short term and bite the bullet in the late summer, domestic chores permitting of course. At least that's my plan, after a beer or two now to wet my throat and a bottle of red tonight I might change my mind !

Attached is a link to a short video for you sadists who like to see other people's problems - it's under the nearside floor that I stripped earlier today. I found patches on both outriggers this time and on the front end of the chassis rail. At least the latter didn't have any filler about it ! Sorry about the quality but my bones and joints were aching at this point - I did discover that a doubled up yoga mat is great for kneeling on and the dirt can be wiped off afterwards.

Enjoy Part 3 - another Stokeystag production - http://vimeo.com/64003666

Mark

[jakesmig]

Mark,
Just to throw my hat in the ring......
I would err towards Neil (flying farmers) view in the short term, none of the work looks inherrently dangerous so you might as well get some use our of the car in the short term. Regarding repairs, I would generally agree with cutting back until you know what is good and lay in new metalwork. Leaving as is at present would let you obtain a welder and have some practise on scraps before you undertake body repairs. Nothing you have shown is unreasonably hard to fix but you need practise before you wade in there.
I would differ from Micky's method of butt welding rather than overlapping, beginners and experienced welders can all too easily burn the metal when butt welding, particularly in tight areas. I tend to overlap, but use a plug weld to tack the metal in place before seam welding along the edge.
John

[StokeyStag]

Cheers John,

Sounds like a plan I could deliver with lots of practice, already thinking about how to get a new piece to match the ribs in the floor panel !

Just been looking at MiG welders, what sort of power / rating should I be looking for ?

Thanks,

Mark

[milothedog]

Cheers John,

Sounds like a plan I could deliver with lots of practice, already thinking about how to get a new piece to match the ribs in the floor panel !

Just been looking at MiG welders, what sort of power / rating should I be looking for ?

Thanks,

Mark

I believe most people in the know say don't bother with anything less than 130 Amps, I'm sure one of the Tin Worm experts will offer some first hand advice in a while.

Ian.

[new to this]

mark

if it was me i would replace the riggers,but use the car now, a job to after the summer,in the mean time practice your welding,good luck

dave